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#21 David CO

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 10:49 AM

I didn't know that people were being forced to join OA.   


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#22 Stosh

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:39 AM

Might be more an issue of training and knowing the job, rather than being forced to join OA.  Pretty hard to promote certain parts of the program when one knows nothing about it.


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#23 David CO

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:47 AM

I could see having a new DE observe the process, just so he knows what it is all about.  Forcing him to join is entirely different.

 

I am a little surprised that OA would go along with a "shotgun wedding" sort of thing. 


Edited by David CO, 06 March 2017 - 11:48 AM.

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#24 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:44 PM

I could see having a new DE observe the process, just so he knows what it is all about.  Forcing him to join is entirely different.

 

I am a little surprised that OA would go along with a "shotgun wedding" sort of thing. 

 

Part of a DE's responsibilities is being the chapter staff advisor. That's why if a pro is not an Arrowman already, they are exempt from the camping requirement, and are automatically eligible. Grant you, most DEs are so busy that unless they are the lodge staff advisor, they do not do much with the OA. But they are a few exceptions. Going to an Ordeal and preparing the ceremony area in the mud and rain, as well as helping coach the team, broke the ice with the volunteers in my district back in the day.

 

I know there have been some changes to the inductions process, i.e. SMs can get a waiver for the camping requirement, but as far as I know district and council level volunteers must have it still. My district only had one person who met the requirement, and he's going in a few weeks.


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"Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt


#25 Col. Flagg

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:57 PM

 

I know there have been some changes to the inductions process, i.e. SMs can get a waiver for the camping requirement, but as far as I know district and council level volunteers must have it still. My district only had one person who met the requirement, and he's going in a few weeks.

 

Really? What's the point in that? This is the guy that is supposed to be the primary example of the program.

 

If there's any more evidence needed that OA has become a mere shadow of itself one need look no further. How sad.


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#26 Chisos

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 01:59 PM

 

I know there have been some changes to the inductions process, i.e. SMs can get a waiver for the camping requirement, but as far as I know district and council level volunteers must have it still. My district only had one person who met the requirement, and he's going in a few weeks.

 

I had not seen that anywhere (SM waiver for the camping requirement), but the waiver they do get is to not "count" against a unit's adult nominee limit (i.e, 1 adult per 3 scouts).


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#27 JosephMD

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 03:12 PM

I had not seen that anywhere (SM waiver for the camping requirement), but the waiver they do get is to not "count" against a unit's adult nominee limit (i.e, 1 adult per 3 scouts).

 

This.  If you think about it, most SMs will exceed the camping nights every year almost by default.  I suppose there are SMs that don't camp with their unit or units that don't camp, but something tells me they aren't all that interested in a brotherhood of honor campers (if we are honoring tradition). 


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#28 Ridgerunner

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 09:07 PM

OK so let me go through thse to respond..

CR-yes I'm the Chrater Rep and was asked to be the eCharter rep by this org since I'm already one for a sister organization as well as the IH there. 
Yes, only an IH can appoint the Charter Rep, but the sketchy thing here is that it involves a career move unit which was started before any Charter was obtained, then walked away from by the professional staff. 

 

Blackballed form district and council. 
Yes, I know it actually sounds like a pretty sweet deal with the level of beingvoluntold most leaders getinto. But the issue here is that we have around a 50% turnover rate each year in leadership from military moves, and the few local/permanent resident volunteers arethe only ones that are here long enough to keep things running on a year to year basis with consistency. 

The "let em fail and they'll learn" theory is great, we actually did it as a group before when we had some far worse staff who began blacklisting some of the elder volunteers. The problem was that the professionals were only temporary, didn't care, and just let things fail which only resulted in hurting our kids in the process. 
No one cares about yet another pointless knot patch or some throw away award councilgives out to someone who helped them get their bonus orpromotion, this is solely about ensuring the program runs for our kids (which is the whole core of why parents really volunteer anyway).

 


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#29 Col. Flagg

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:57 AM

The "let em fail and they'll learn" theory is great, we actually did it as a group before when we had some far worse staff who began blacklisting some of the elder volunteers. The problem was that the professionals were only temporary, didn't care, and just let things fail which only resulted in hurting our kids in the process. 

 

If units know how to manage themselves then district becomes irrelevant. If district wants to black ball me from the training committee, great. Nothing keeps me from offering my training to Pack and Troop leaders to help their units. So all you need to do is "end run" the district. They'll be gone in a short period anyway.


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#30 qwazse

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:58 AM

Well, your are in a no-man's land. From your district's perspective ...

 

Who is the head of that organization? Right now, no man.

Who in the organization has the signed copy of the charter? Right now, no man.

 

So, you'll remained deadlocked until the person in charge of that organization makes a call to council HQ and says, "I am the IH for CO of unit ###. We would like to see our charter and assure that it identifies the volunteers whom we approved to run the program, starting with Mr. Runner as our COR -- with thanks to the professionals who got us started last year. We'll take it from here."

 

Turnover does make it hard, but you need those couple of year-in year-out volunteers to go the extra mile, and the IH needs to believe in them. Because of membership churn, you and those one or two other people need to assure council that you'll see to it that new adult volunteers are brought on every year.

 

Otherwise, you will remain at loggerheads with an overtaxed professional staff who see you all as fly-by-nighters.

 

Keep that in mind when you make that call to the SE.


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#31 ParkMan

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:19 PM

If units know how to manage themselves then district becomes irrelevant. If district wants to black ball me from the training committee, great. Nothing keeps me from offering my training to Pack and Troop leaders to help their units. So all you need to do is "end run" the district. They'll be gone in a short period anyway.

 

But, it's very true.  Both the CS pack & BS troop we've been involved with have been strong enough that the district doesn't add much to the equation.

 

It took me a few years to figure this one out.  I've come to understand that the district is really a peer organization to the units.  The district provides support to the units, but they are not the "boss" of the units.  Don't like what the DE tells you - just ignore him.  The unit belongs to the CO - end of story.  Your status as a volunteer rests with the institutional head (and by extension the COR).   Sure - in extreme cases, the Council could revoke your membership.  But, in reality no council is going to run around pulling Scouter's memberships because they ignored the DE.  It's not worth the SE's time.

 

But, the last thing I'd do is fight with the DE.  If your motivation is getting the district to help your unit - I wouldn't bother.  Just focus your energy on your unit.


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#32 TAHAWK

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:50 PM

Districts exist for the administrative convenience of Council and act by delegated authority from Council.

 

The Council's theoretical reason-for-being is to support COs and their units just as a troop exists to support it's patrols.  Training is a critical tool to meet that purpose (for councils and troops), as is providing program for units that need such service.  Often, help is needed to complete the paperwork for registration as it is needlessly complex.  Some units need encouragement to see to recorded advancement. 

 

I was with a unit that existed from 1908 until BSA finally permanently arrived in Orange County, California eighteen years later. (And no, we don't want to be Troop 1.  We're Troop 43.)

 

I was with a unit in Ohio that had one visit from a UC in twenty-five years, never went to Council's camp except for Klondike, and was too busy backpacking to attend Camporee.  That troop did the youth leader training for the district, even when BSA abandoned district-level youth leader training in 2001.  The DEs came and went to quickly that I can only recall three by name of the over forty in those twenty-five years.  That unit celebrates it's 109th birthday thus Summer.

 

So district can be important - or not - to a unit.   A DE is there to support the district volunteers, but many are told by their SE's - sometimes in writing -  that they are de facto in charge and, thus, are responsible for measurable results.  So DEs repeatedly work to metrics and game the system.  Cleveland lost it's first SE over paper membership in 1926 - not the last.

 

Most of the things I read complaints about here are volunteer responsibilities.


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#33 oldisnewagain1

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 12:54 PM

 

 Don't like what the DE tells you - just ignore him.  The unit belongs to the CO - end of story.  Your status as a volunteer rests with the institutional head (and by extension the COR).  

 

:D  :D  :D  :D  :D

 

Some other ways to ignore him...

 

Whoops...forgot to schedule FOS presentation.

Go across district borders and attend another districts event.

 

Or to really get black-balled

 

Go to another council's  Training, Wood Badge, Camproee, MBU, and/or Summer camp


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#34 Col. Flagg

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 01:13 PM

Go to another council's  Training, Wood Badge, Camproee, MBU, and/or Summer camp

 

We never camp at our summer camp. Spend one summer here and you will know why. Our guys hate camporee because its the same events won by the same troops who actually practice the events before going. We don't do MBUs. We do some council training but our neighboring council has a great WFRA program (we have none) and other training.

 

I think they don't black ball us because we usually haul in $$$ for FOS. Why give away a cash cow?


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#35 Snow Owl

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:08 PM

I have asked this question before; So why do we need council? Our council does nothing for the established units except ask for money. I wish we could opt out of a council!

We stay becaus we love the program, despite council and the paid folks!
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#36 TAHAWK

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:19 PM

Perhaps because not all units, especialy those not formed yet, are not "established."


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#37 Back Pack

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 07:10 AM

I have asked this question before; So why do we need council? Our council does nothing for the established units except ask for money. I wish we could opt out of a council!
We stay becaus we love the program, despite council and the paid folks!


Well the standard answer would be support, training, admin coordination (forms, awards, mb classes, scout shop, governance, etc).
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#38 Stosh

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 07:58 AM

"We're here on the line assembling cars together for the customer.  Why do we need bosses?  They don't lift a finger to help and for the most part simply get in the way."  - Union 101


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#39 TAHAWK

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 08:21 AM

"We're here on the line assembling cars together for the customer.  Why do we need bosses?  They don't lift a finger to help and for the most part simply get in the way."  - Union 101

 

Because before the bosses there was no "assembly line" or money to build one?

 

The UAW was demanding forty-hours pay for a thirty-hour week just as Japan was conquering the automotive world.  No shortage of stupid on either side of management/labor.


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#40 Stosh

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 09:14 AM

The multi-billion dollar, global company I used to work for had a quote from their CEO: "The man on the assembly line does not work for us, we work for them". 

 

It would be nice if BSA picked up on that sentiment. 

 

By the way it is obvious that the CEO has read the book, SERVANT LEADERSHIP by Robert Greenleaf. 

 

We in the BSA trenches are the ones in direct contact with the customer, i.e. scouts.  Without proper support we can't do that.


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