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Running a Frontier Girls program concurrent with a Cub Scout Pack


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#1 Cubmaster Pete

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 09:34 PM

The committee and I have decided we will move forward with starting a FG troop to run concurrent with our CS Pack. We have several families within the pack that have girls that want to be included in a more official capacity, as well as interest from outside families that only have girls.

 

Basically, the girls would participate in the CS program with NO changes to the CS program. FG is very flexible with requirements, so far as to accept BSA ones over their own. Lets say the Tigers are getting their "Rolling Tigers" adventure. The girls would do the same requirements, and get the "Bicycling" badge from FG. The girls would not be getting a Tiger or Wolf or Bear rank badge, but the equivalent advancement through FG.

 

The girls would be registered as FG, and there would be no mixing of finances between the two units, as they would be run separate. They would even have separate chartered organizations, which works for us and both org's have no issue with this. All we are doing is meeting together, pooling recources, and serving the entire family in our area. The troop that we share a CO with is receptive at this time, and while we do not have any prospective girls older than 5 yrs old right now, that would be a minor stumbling block if we get that far.

 

Council and District thought it was a great idea, so we have their ok on it. What are your thoughts? Potential problems, etc....? 

 

Getting into something new here.... not quite coed scouting but close. I don't want to water down the Cub Scout experience for the boys, but I don't think that will happen. Just want to serve all the youth in our area. We are a small rural pack/troop.


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#2 Stosh

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:12 PM

I would find it difficult to try and run two programs at the same time.  An occasional shared activity now and then would be okay, like a family picnic, etc. but to run two programs at the same time?  Not my thing especially if some parents from one organization took umbrage with something someone did they didn't like in the other program.  Unless I am responsibility to a whole group, intermingling of two groups has potential ramifications I wouldn't want to deal with.  I'm the den leader, and some little girl says I touched her inappropriately, is it a Frontier Girls issue or is it a BSA issue? If she gets hurt on my watch, does BSA cover my liability when I get sued?

 

Way too many unknowns for me to find out at some inconvenient future date.

 

Nope, not for me.


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#3 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:14 PM

Of course district and council want you to try it. You are going to eb the guinea pigs for coed Cubs.


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#4 Cubmaster Pete

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:32 PM

I would find it difficult to try and run two programs at the same time.  An occasional shared activity now and then would be okay, like a family picnic, etc. but to run two programs at the same time?  Not my thing especially if some parents from one organization took umbrage with something someone did they didn't like in the other program.  Unless I am responsibility to a whole group, intermingling of two groups has potential ramifications I wouldn't want to deal with.  I'm the den leader, and some little girl says I touched her inappropriately, is it a Frontier Girls issue or is it a BSA issue? If she gets hurt on my watch, does BSA cover my liability when I get sued?

 

 

I see your point. We are still hammering out details, but I would require that every parent of a FG be present at every meeting for girls Tiger age or under, just like BSA requires.

 

BSA YP would apply, as far as if I had girls and boys at a den meeting, I would require both a male and female leader there. I would go so far as to require that parents stay with their kids the entire meeting. I have no issue with that. If you don't like that, find something else to involve your kid in.


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#5 Stosh

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 11:14 PM

YPT does not cover it when a girl from FG gets hurt on your "watch" and the Cub DL gets sued for negligence.  Is BSA going to back the DL up?  The Cub DL will need both a male and female for a co-ed activity just like Venturing.  Yet the female would be there for YPT only and neither would be responsible for the FG members.

 

As one who has primary responsibility for running a Cub activity, are all the girls "visitors"?  Do they get equal attention from the two DL's or will the focus not be 100% on the boys?  Will the boys get the full attention of the DL's or will they be seen as getting favoritism if they do.  If a girl and boy get into a squabble do the parents deal with it or the registered leaders?  If the finances are kept separate how are activity expenses calculated?  What will the boys be doing when the FG's are working on advancement that aren't comparable to the Cub program?  Are all the other dens in the Pack affected or just one den? Is the Cubmaster going to be handing out FG awards or will they have a separate time for that?  Does FG have the same regulations, guidelines and policies that the BSA does?  Does that boil down to the least common denominator, i.e. the FG gals are not allowed to do an activity allowed by BSA, so the boys won't be able to do that? or vice versa?

 

I could go on for hours just asking questions, far too many to ask, far too many to get reliable answers for.

 

For me, if there's going to be co-ed scouting, I'm gonna wait until all these issues are ironed out before jumping in the swamp with the alligators.  And if BSA goes co-ed what happens to the FG girls? all join scouting and dump the FG program?  I'm sure that's going to impress FG.

 

Nope, still not interested in playing with a hornet's nest.


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#6 David CO

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 11:50 PM

Though you currently have no prospective FG girls older than 5 years old right now, that could change very quickly.  How would you deal with it if a few older girls sign up tomorrow?


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#7 Cubmaster Pete

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 12:02 AM

That I am not sure of, but thats why I am asking questions.....

 

I think the consensus may be to have some joint events, but not everything?  Like den meetings?


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#8 Stosh

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 12:08 AM

After working for 45+ years with youth groups both co-ed and single sex groups, this appears to be a cobbled hybrid attempt to circumvent the BSA policy and program for young males.  Way too many pitfalls and not enough safety net for me.  I wouldn't want to be involved with it. Do your own thing for your boys, that's your only responsibility, have an occasional combined activity, maybe every 3 or 4 months, but leave the rest on the table and walk away.


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#9 David CO

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 12:20 AM

That I am not sure of, but thats why I am asking questions.....

 

I think the consensus may be to have some joint events, but not everything?  Like den meetings?

 

I am sorry to say this, Pete, but my impression is that you are putting most of your time and attention on the little guys and neglecting the Webelos.

 

You need to consider how this will effect the Webelos.


Edited by David CO, 16 February 2017 - 12:23 AM.

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#10 Cubmaster Pete

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 12:30 AM

I am sorry to say this, Pete, but my impression is that you are putting most of your time and attention on the little guys and neglecting the Webelos.

 

You need to consider how this will effect the Webelos.

 

At the moment, my pack does not have any webelos. 1 bear who does not show up much, 6 wolves, 3 tigers and 5 lions. I realize it sounds very small, and it is, but its up from what it was. This February the unit would have folded when the Web II crossed over. Myself and the few other parents worked hard to recruit and develop a good program.

 

There is a bit of a selfish factor involved here. I have two daughters, 5 and 3. CC has one daughter, 5. DL has one daugher, 5. There are a few other parents who have daughters too that are younger than the sons.... We are all looking for a decent program, do not want to go the GS route, and use a program we know works and that the kids enjoy.


Edited by Cubmaster Pete, 16 February 2017 - 12:41 AM.

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#11 David CO

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 01:30 AM

Then you will need to consider how this will effect your ability to recruit Webelos.


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#12 bearess

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 05:46 AM

I think Stosh brings up good logistical YP points. I'm not familiar with fireside Girls, but how would the leader situation work? Would you have one leader for the boys and one for the girls? What happens if the FG leader wants to do something that has no equivalent in Scouts? Will each kid get awards from their own leader? Won't that make meetings drag on? As they get older, what happens if one group is allowed, per their organizations policy, to do something the other one isn't?
I understand the appeal of having a program for your girls at the same time as the boys. But this feels like it's going to end up with the FG being an 'add-on' that will, almost inevitably, get less attention. I'd look into forming a separate group that gets together with the Cubs for regular events- hikes, picnic, family camp, etc. Like a sister troop.
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#13 qwazse

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 06:47 AM

Sounds like fun. Go for it!


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#14 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 09:53 AM

Me personally, I have lots of concerns. One I've seen first hand is what can happen when female siblings attend major district and council Cub events, but due to limit space for activities, cannot do the activities their brothers are doing.

 

To quote the 9th Doctor, "RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!"

 

To quote the 2nd Doctor, 'When I say run, run. RUN!"


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#15 EmberMike

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 10:10 AM

This idea would have some problems and challenges, for sure, but I don't think it's anything that can't be dealt with. Good luck with it, Pete. Keep us updated on your progress. 


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#16 gumbymaster

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 12:54 PM

It sounds like an interesting challenge.

 

My first thought is that all of your leadership will need to be trained by both programs (CS & FG).  This may put an extra burden on the den and pack leaders they do not want or need.  The Alternative is to have a CS leader and a separate FG leader, and they could share the role of running activities, run separate activities for many things, or one could defer to the other's leadership, and be a leader in a CYA sense only.

 

In practice, Cub Scouts are already billed as a program for the whole family, so the only real change is that you have a formal structure, and that there is an awards/advancement option not available to "participating" siblings in the Cub Scouts.

 

I cannot find the thread at the moment, but there is another member on this board who runs a concurrent program for boys and girls from cubs through high school, using a mix of BSA, GSUSA and other programs to do so.  He would probably be a good person to reach out to, I'm sorry I do not recall the name at the moment - They had a fantastic group picture of all the units.

 

One program that I belonged to in my youth, was an Explorer post (pre Venturing) that also offered programs for pre-13 year olds and/or non-scouts, and for them, they were registered as Campfire youth, and then went on to participate like anyone else.  The program did not have an advancement component, so it may have been a little easier.  But I do not know the specifics of how to have the adult leadership properly qualified in such circumstances.  But they were able to run their program, and even rented BSA camps for a week to run it, so it must have passed someones scrutiny at the time.

 

Good luck.  Take lots of of notes on what does or does not work and the challenges you run into and how they are overcome.  And please share that with us.  It will be valuable for the rest of us someday.


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#17 NJCubScouter

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 03:57 PM

I think it can be made to work, but I think there are a lot of questions that need to be answered.  I would make up a list of questions, based on the issues raised in this thread, and then go meet with your DE or other appropriate professional at council and get answers before I would commit to do anything like this.  The first item on my list of questions would be insurance, in other words, who (if anyone) is providing insurance for the girls and their activities that corresponds to the insurance that the BSA provides for the boys?  If the answer is "you are", you may want to rethink your plans.  YP rules, YP training and other training are also essential questions.  And I would read these FAQs very carefully: http://frontiergirlsclubs.com/faqs/ Frontier Girls (which I never heard of before this thread) is not actually an organization with members like the BSA.  "Frontier Girls LLC simply sells a curriculum product." So if there's an issue or problem, who you gonna call?  Is your DE going to help you with issues regarding the Frontier Girls?  Because it does not appear that there is a Frontier Girls DE, or anything like it.


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#18 Stosh

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 04:23 PM

WOW  Thanks @NJCubScouter  No background checks, no YPT, and make sure you have $1,000,000+ in homeowner's liability insurance and own a home!

 

Sign me up! I have "Stupid" written with a Sharpie on my forehead!   :eek:


Edited by Stosh, 16 February 2017 - 04:24 PM.

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#19 Cubmaster Pete

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 07:40 PM

Stosh,

I respect your opinion, and generally agree with most of what you say on this forum.

But saying I'm stupid, really?

A scout is courteous..... moving on....
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#20 Stosh

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 07:57 PM

Stupid is a perfectly acceptable word in the dictionary, None I could find indicate it is a derogatory term.

 

stu·pid
ˈst(y)o͞opəd/
adjective
adjective: stupid; comparative adjective: stupider; superlative adjective: stupidest
  1. 1.
    having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.
    "I was stupid enough to think she was perfect"
    • dazed and unable to think clearly.
      "apprehension was numbing her brain and making her stupid"
      synonyms: into a stupor, into a daze, into oblivion; More
      stupefied, dazed, unconscious
      "he drank himself stupid"
      antonyms: alert
    • informal
      used to express exasperation or boredom.
      "she told him to stop messing with his stupid painting"
noun
informal
noun: stupid; plural noun: stupids
  1. 1.
    a stupid person (often used as a term of address).
    "you're not a coward, stupid!"

 

It this case it does show a certain lack of intelligence (i.e. military intelligence, information) or lack of knowledge and a questionable amount of common sense before taking on the objective.

 

Be prepared?  I don't think this whole idea has been carefully thought out, not enough intelligence gathering and to proceed thus would indicate a questionable lack of common sense. 

 

I apologize if the word might have offended someone, but it is a perfectly good word which puts into one word how I perceive this endeavor. 

 

One of the lessons I learned in life as a wordsmith is I cannot be held accountable for everyone's perceived definition of words.  I just do the best I can.  If one were to go back and look carefully at the comment I do not use the word as a noun, just as an adjective.  If anyone might have derived any one as stupid, it would have been me, having been stupid enough to write that word with a permanent ink Sharpy on my forehead.  That means at best everyone else is off the hook.

 

As @Col. Flagg mentioned in another post, be careful with words, they have a lot of perfectly good meanings many of us are not aware of.


Edited by Stosh, 17 February 2017 - 08:00 PM.

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