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Push for Coed Scouting


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#21 Stosh

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 12:09 PM

@Cambridgeskip offers a litany of women moving into the male dominated areas of society.  Yet, where's the list of where men are allowed into a female dominated areas of society?

 

I had many years of adult leadership in many organizations, community, religious and Boy Scouting.  Yet when my daughters were in GS/USA I offered up my expertise and was rejected because they wanted women running their troops.  When I was looking for employment I applied for a position in the local GS/USA offices and having sent in an application and resume, did not hear back from them but the help wanted ad stayed in the newspaper for a month afterwards.

 

Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways. 

 

I cook, I sew, I do laundry and I clean house, I do needlepoint and embroidery, and many other traditional "female" skills, yet the stares I get are all the same.  I would try Heritage Girls, but I really don't like wasting my time, I have limited volunteering time in my life to waste it on political agendas. 

 

I have 1700+ hours of volunteering for the American Red Cross since June 1st of last year.  I have gone on two disaster relief operations one in Louisiana, one in South Carolina and today I am clearing my calendar with backup people for my church youth group and Scout troop because I might get deployed to Northern California to do another disaster relief operation because of the 180,000 people evacuated from the possible dam breech. 

 

Maybe if some of these people with political agendas ever decide to roll up their sleeves and "help other people at all times" instead of whining about not getting an Eagle medallion, something more constructive can be accomplished.


Edited by Stosh, 13 February 2017 - 12:10 PM.

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#22 Col. Flagg

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 12:25 PM

I agree with the post about the difference between equity and equality.

 

Girls are given a chance to join the Scouting program, it's called Venturing. They can even earn a pretty tough award.

 

Girls are not "injured" by not being able to join Boy Scouts. They are not denied anything because they are not Eagle, except the ability to join NESA. But I cannot join the AMA as a doctor because I'm not one. Maybe I should force them to change. I feel discriminated against. :rolleyes:

 

Girls could always claim to be boys and join a unit. Then they can get Eagle.

 

So, there are her options. Pick one and more on.


Edited by Col. Flagg, 13 February 2017 - 12:27 PM.

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#23 qwazse

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 12:31 PM

Qwazse, for some reason I had the impression from past discussions that you supported making Boy Scouts and/or Cub Scouts co-ed.  Is that incorrect?

Well, there is no doubt that my direct influences are from scouts from other countries who find us utterly perplexing.

 

My position, specifically, is that BSA should be quick to recognize "first class scouts" regardless of sex. But, I also believe that a lot of parents who look for a program specifically for boys will take their business elsewhere if BSA caters to special interests. This may result in a net loss of youth being served for a decade or more. So I can respect BSA's tentativeness.

 

More importantly, detractors who argue, without proof, that girls are being harmed will only leave us wondering about why they aren't being helped by any adjustment made. If the total pool of scholarship dollars for girls is smaller than for boys, prove it. Then, prove that distributing scholarship $ due to Eagle awards to women who earn that award will make a dent in that imbalance.

 

Finally, any external detractor of BSA's exclusions should put his/her efforts behind the model youth organizations that meet his/her approval. Any other action seems like trying to use boys as unwilling tools for social engineering.


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#24 walk in the woods

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 12:33 PM

  On the other hand, as I have also said before, I am not opposed to girls earning Eagle, if a way can be found for them to do the Scout-1st Class requirements in a way that does not disrupt the current Boy Scouting program.

This is actually trivially easy to solve.  Venturing has a 4-level recognition system.  Move Star, Life and Eagle into Venturing, exclusively, with the merit badges and such, as Levels II - IV.  Make the first level of Venturing recognition the equivalent of Scout-First Class requirements.  Scouts coming from Boy Scout Troops as 1st Class would start working at Level II, girls and boys without Troop experience could choose to work starting at Level I.  SLE could be presented as a parallel track to the other awards in Venturing to give scouts options.  Expand the Eagle brand to include Ranger, Trust, Quest, whatever those programs are called.

 

Boy Scouts would become the middle school program.  This has the added benefit of removing merit badges from Boys Scouts, and therefore Boy Scout summer camps.  It would turn the Boy Scout program into a longer transitional process from Cub Scouts to Venturing, eliminates the debate about mixed-age vs. new scout patrols, gives helicopter parents a chance to mellow out.  


Edited by walk in the woods, 13 February 2017 - 12:34 PM.

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#25 EmberMike

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 12:49 PM

Ugh, this is just getting ridiculous. Why can't the world today just let an organization made for boys BE FOR BOYS? I hope the BSA National Board ignores this "push" entirely. Just because lots of people want it doesn't make it right.

 

Ignore it? I think they're part of it. Ultimately they can choose to do whatever they want and yet they have gone with greater inclusion every step of the way. Even without outside pressure. Was anyone pressuring the BSA to create a co-ed STEM program? 

 

This isn't always an issue of reacting to outside influences. Some inside influences are certainly in play on all of these issues. 


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#26 Fehler

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 01:03 PM

Monetary/professional benefits for Eagle earners (such as the up-step in pay in the military) should be rescinded, unless the award can also be earned by girls, or if a complimentary award (such as the GSUSA Gold Award, and/or whatever the top Venturing award is) is also recognized. 


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#27 Col. Flagg

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 01:08 PM

Monetary/professional benefits for Eagle earners (such as the up-step in pay in the military) should be rescinded, unless the award can also be earned by girls, or if a complimentary award (such as the GSUSA Gold Award, and/or whatever the top Venturing award is) is also recognized. 

 

Do that and you need to take away other non-needs based programs or scholarships. To be fair, you cannot advocate that salaries or loans or scholarships be based on anything other than merit or needs. So no more only [insert pet cause here] scholarships if it is not open to everyone.

 

If we are going to be truly blind I have no problem opening up Eagle to all. If we are going to continue to cheery pick what we make open or closed, then please leave Eagle as it is.


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#28 qwazse

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 01:13 PM

... This isn't always an issue of reacting to outside influences. Some inside influences are certainly in play on all of these issues. 

The young lady in the article has a venturing shirt and World Scouting neckerchief. That pretty much qualifies as inside influence.


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#29 The Latin Scot

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 01:13 PM

I like that movie too, enough to know that that line is spoken by the villain, who is a psychotic murderer who "gets his" at the end.  Is that really who you want to be quoting?  (Or actually misquoting, it's "super", not "special".)

First of all, his name is Syndrome. And secondly, yes, he is exactly whom I want to be quoting, actually, because he reveals that this modern idea, that everybody should get the same thing, that "girls should be boy scouts too," that nobody should be allowed to exclude - it's fundamentally a BAD IDEA. It's the VILLAIN who wants everybody to get the same privileges whether they earn them or not, the VILLAIN who wants to level the playing field to the point that there's no point in playing, the VILLAIN who wants to ensure that nobody gets a chance to excel, because that would be "unfair" or "elitist" or "unequal." The very idea that merit has not place in society is fundamentally problematic, if not blatantly wrong. 

 

So yeah - Syndrome is exactly the one I want to quote, because his idea is, at its core, a rotten one. That is just my point, and I am glad you asked me to clarify, although it would seem you were hoping I would back up on what I said. In the which case I must disappoint you.  ;)


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#30 EmberMike

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 01:16 PM

... The very idea that merit has not place in society is fundamentally problematic, if not blatantly wrong. ...

 

 

And it has absolutely nothing to do with co-ed scouting. Co-ed doesn't remove the merit component of earning rank. 


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#31 Eagledad

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 01:22 PM

Monetary/professional benefits for Eagle earners (such as the up-step in pay in the military) should be rescinded, unless the award can also be earned by girls, or if a complimentary award (such as the GSUSA Gold Award, and/or whatever the top Venturing award is) is also recognized. 

Why do I think this is bad....

 

Oh yah,

 

First of all, his name is Syndrome. And secondly, yes, he is exactly whom I want to be quoting, actually, because he reveals that this modern idea, that everybody should get the same thing, that "girls should be boy scouts too," that nobody should be allowed to exclude - it's fundamentally a BAD IDEA. It's the VILLAIN who wants everybody to get the same privileges whether they earn them or not, the VILLAIN who wants to level the playing field to the point that there's no point in playing, the VILLAIN who wants to ensure that nobody gets a chance to excel, because that would be "unfair" or "elitist" or "unequal." The very idea that merit has not place in society is fundamentally problematic, if not blatantly wrong. 

 

So yeah - Syndrome is exactly the one I want to quote, because his idea is, at its core, a rotten one. That is just my point, and I am glad you asked me to clarify, although it would seem you were hoping I would back up on what I said. In the which case I must disappoint you.  ;)

I call it equality through mediocrity. But Latin Scot said it much more eloquently.

 

Barry


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#32 NJCubScouter

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 01:22 PM

Monetary/professional benefits for Eagle earners (such as the up-step in pay in the military) should be rescinded, unless the award can also be earned by girls, or if a complimentary award (such as the GSUSA Gold Award, and/or whatever the top Venturing award is) is also recognized. 

 

Already done, at least as far as the military is concerned.  Eagle and GUSUA Gold will get you the same step-up when enlisting in the U.S. military, see: https://www.thebalan...rograms-3344738  This is a non-official site, but it is consistent with what I have seen on official U.S. military sites.  The highest awards in Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are treated equally in this context.


Edited by NJCubScouter, 13 February 2017 - 01:25 PM.

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#33 The Latin Scot

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 01:23 PM

Co-ed does cut out the very heart of the program though, which is to help BOYS become better MEN. Do we have to put girls into this kind of a program?


Edited by The Latin Scot, 13 February 2017 - 01:25 PM.

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#34 NJCubScouter

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 01:29 PM

Co-ed does cut out the very heart of the program though, which is to help BOYS become better MEN. Do we have to put girls into this kind of a program?

 

With that kind of argument, I almost feel myself start to lean more toward making packs and troops co-ed.  I'm not there yet, though.


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#35 The Latin Scot

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 01:51 PM

Well thank goodness the decision isn't in any of our hands then.


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#36 EmberMike

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 02:41 PM

Co-ed does cut out the very heart of the program though, which is to help BOYS become better MEN. Do we have to put girls into this kind of a program?

 

 

I've been hearing the "boys become men" thing more often lately. Where is that coming from? Is that documented anywhere? 

 

I was under the impression that the aims of scouting were (and still are) character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. 

 

And none of those things are exclusive to one gender. 


Edited by EmberMike, 13 February 2017 - 02:43 PM.

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#37 Stosh

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 02:43 PM

I've been hearing the "boys become men" thing more often lately. Where is that coming from? Is that documented anywhere? 

 

I was under the impression that the aims of scouting were (and still are) character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. That's what our books say. 

 

And none of those things are exclusive to one gender. 

 

If that be the case, why did Lady Powell start the Girl Guides.... ?


Edited by Stosh, 13 February 2017 - 02:43 PM.

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There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#38 EmberMike

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 02:47 PM

If that be the case, why did Lady Powell start the Girl Guides.... ?

 

 

Because girls weren't allowed in the boy scouts and girls wanted the same opportunity as boys to do the same activities and learn the same things. Not unlike today where girls in the US are still looking for such a program. 


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#39 Eagledad

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 03:04 PM

I've been hearing the "boys become men" thing more often lately. Where is that coming from? Is that documented anywhere? 

 

I was under the impression that the aims of scouting were (and still are) character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. 

 

And none of those things are exclusive to one gender. 

Good question. The Aims are the down in the trenches unit goals the adults use to help the scouts toward the BSA Mission. The BSA Mission is preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetime by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. 

 

And sure, the Mission is not specific to a gender, but Mission goals has it's most influence toward growth when the genders are separated. At least at the troop age where using the Eight Methods is specified for the troop program.

 

We talk about "boys becoming men" because this is after all the Boy Scouts. But I expect Girl Scout leaders talk about "girls becoming women".

 

Barry


Edited by Eagledad, 13 February 2017 - 03:17 PM.

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#40 MattR

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 04:00 PM

Why does everyone assume that coed scouts means every unit, at every level, will be coed? Would an all girls scout troop using the BSA model work? Now let's say that there is an all boys troop and an all girls troop that shares the same committee. Different SMs. Different calendars. Shared gear. Shared committee. Shared CO. The parents bring all the kids to the same place so family scheduling just got easier. If these units are really following the patrol method, when they do go to the same place to go camping and are 100 yards apart, would it be a problem? The girls can sing songs around their campfire while the boys beat the tar out of each other around their campfire.


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