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#21 Sentinel947

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 11:45 AM

If the CO is a public school, meaning the school itself or the board of education, rather than a separate organization AT the school such as a PTA or PTO, I would think there is a problem with it being a CO at all.  Not mentioning the name of any long-time poster who might be interested in this subject, if he's still checking this forum.


It has been awfully quiet on that front hasn't it?
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#22 NJCubScouter

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 11:47 AM

It has been awfully quiet on that front hasn't it?

 

Heh heh.  I wasn't being too subtle, was I?  :)


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#23 David CO

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 12:17 PM

SSScout included the Knights of Columbus in his list of groups who can charter scout units.

 

Not the Knights of Columbus.  The Catholic Church has instructed the KC's to not charter scout units anymore.


Edited by David CO, 08 February 2017 - 12:25 PM.

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#24 NJCubScouter

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 12:51 PM

Moderator's Note:  I think ghjim has raised an important topic, which deserves its own discussion, and I was thinking of responding, mainly because I don't think some of the responses address some new developments in the area, mainly the new "duty to God" advancement requirement.  However, it is not really on-topic with CO's limiting their membership, which is also an important subject.  Therefore, I am thinking of splitting off posts #21 through #25 into a separate topic, which I would have to figure out a good title for.  Unless anyone has any strong objections.  The new thread would still be in Issues and Politics.  It would not include the last three posts before this one, which are part of the original topic relating to CO's (although somewhat loosely, in the case of Sentinel's and my latest posts.)

 

Update:  I am going to do this now (approx. 3 pm Eastern time) before this thread gets even more tangled up.  I am going to leave this post here to explain what happened to the posts that are moving.  They will be under the title "Religious groups and individual beliefs" unless I think of a better one in the next few seconds.


Edited by NJCubScouter, 08 February 2017 - 02:02 PM.

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#25 perdidochas

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 01:22 PM

SSScout included the Knights of Columbus in his list of groups who can charter scout units.

 

Not the Knights of Columbus.  The Catholic Church has instructed the KC's to not charter scout units anymore.

 

Yes, the Catholic Church prefers that parishes charter scout units. 


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#26 SSScout

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 11:18 AM

Thank you, perdidochas and David CO.   Good to have up to date info.  I did know of K of C's in this area that did In the past....  Wonder why that is, tho? 


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#27 fred johnson

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 11:44 AM

I am looking for more of the BSA position.  We are trying to add units at public schools, actually public charter schools.  Their position or question is how or why would this be any different than the school football team (softball, volleyball, etc), band, chess club etc?

 

I think your analogy is correct.  Schools could use the same boudary just like with their football, softball or other teams.  

 

Note ... This is a different discussion than religious boundaries or other membership tests.  

 

A school as a charter org would be within it's rights to say only students that attend their school can join their pack/troop.


Edited by fred johnson, 09 February 2017 - 11:49 AM.

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#28 Chisos

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 12:22 PM

Thank you, perdidochas and David CO.   Good to have up to date info.  I did know of K of C's in this area that did In the past....  Wonder why that is, tho? 

 

The idea was to keep the Parish as the "focal point" of its various groups and provide better coordination of various youth groups under the supervision of the parish pastor.  Most KC councils belong to a specific parish, so the charters should have just been transferred at recharter time.


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#29 gumbymaster

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 01:22 PM

Getting back to the original question, my understanding is in alignment with Fred's.

 

A Closed unit may select "additional" criteria which must be satisfied by it's membership (i.e. member of x church, resident of the sponsoring HOA, etc.).  It is up to the BSA and the Chartering Org to determine what additional criteria are allowed or not (i.e exclusion based on race is probably not permitted) prior to the BSA (well local council) issuing a charter.

 

As most of the rest of this discussion seems to wrap around, a closed unit may not change the other mandatory BSA membership requirements.

 

As for a Charter School sponsoring?  It may vary state to state, but my belief is that if the charter school has a separate and distinct tax-id from that of the School District, then it is a separate legal entity (corporation, partnership, etc.), and may enter into any additionally permitted business operations - so that in addition to running the charter school, they would be able to sponsor a scout unit.

 

The best way to describe this is that the charter school corporation is then using it's "profits" to provide a charitable contribution in sponsoring the Scout unit.  Even a non-profit charter school could do this as the non-profit status does not mean not making money, it means that any excess funds are used for public good and not to enrich shareholders.

 

The last issue then is the facility itself.  If the Charter school (corporation) owns/leases it's own facilities, then it would be free to use those facilities as it sees fit (per the lease agreement if any).  If the charter organization is getting "rent-free" use of the pubic school facilities (i.e. maybe running a school in a school or similar), then the issue becomes a little more complex.

 

If the (public school) facility allows other groups to use the facilities, then those same rules would probably govern the charter school sponsored unit's use of those facilities.


Edited by gumbymaster, 09 February 2017 - 01:24 PM.

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#30 SSScout

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 08:29 PM

Gumby:  I think you have most of the understanding here.  

 A Charter School around here is a privately established school that is essentially "licensed" by the public school district/department to operate. Any ordinarily acceptable student may attend there, but the curriculum is somehow adjusted.  More tutilege, more concentration on a particular subject, they wear a "uniform", their staff is hired by the Charter school not the PSD , something sets it apart from the "average" public school. But  They do get public school funds.  They may raise other funds, too, but it is publicly supported, primarily.

 

A totally private school depends on NO public. government funds.

 

Since the Charter School is , technically, NOT a government run school ,( as you say, a separate tax ID?)  they could, I think , charter a Scout unit.   Learning for Life units are specifically, so I understand, intended for those public school situations, with unlimited acceptance. 


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#31 Torchwood

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 08:03 AM

I think that gumby is mostly correct. If the Charter School receives any public funding (through vouchers, grants, etc.), I would think that they cannot restrict membership.


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#32 krikkitbot

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 10:51 AM

I'm a former board member at a charter school. A charter school is a public school with some freedom in curriculum and staffing. However, you still have to follow the same rules as public schools. 

 

Ultimately they can try to restrict membership. They can do it overtly or covertly (not promote the troop outside of the school, etc.) but I would strongly advice against it and would encourage them to consult with their attorney before doing so. 

 

A charter school is a business. Its primary purpose is education but it also needs to attract members of the community to choose to send their kids there. What kind of message does it send to say we don't want your kids to mingle with our kids? Would you want to send your kids there?


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#33 Pale Horse

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 12:07 PM

I'm a former board member at a charter school. A charter school is a public school with some freedom in curriculum and staffing. However, you still have to follow the same rules as public schools. 

 

Ultimately they can try to restrict membership. They can do it overtly or covertly (not promote the troop outside of the school, etc.) but I would strongly advice against it and would encourage them to consult with their attorney before doing so. 

 

A charter school is a business. Its primary purpose is education but it also needs to attract members of the community to choose to send their kids there. What kind of message does it send to say we don't want your kids to mingle with our kids? Would you want to send your kids there?

 

 

From the OP's post it sounds more like a security concern as opposed to overt exclusion of someone based on a protected class.  I don't think it's sending a negative message to say "for the safety of our students, members of Pack/Troop XXX must be registered students of XYZ Charter Academy."  


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#34 fred johnson

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 01:50 PM

I think that gumby is mostly correct. If the Charter School receives any public funding (through vouchers, grants, etc.), I would think that they cannot restrict membership.

 

They could restrict membership to the students of the school.  People are mixing issues and questions.  Just as a school has the right to only have their students on their football team, the school has the right to only have their students in a troop.  Faith and other restrictions are a different issue.

 

The original question was could a school run a closed unit.  Closed in that they only accept members from their school.  The answer would be yes that is their right. 


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#35 cyclops

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 08:39 AM

This doesn't directly address the question but it has been my observation over the years that for our local area at least, the district executives will charter literally anything that is willing to sign the forms as new units. There's nothing on those forms that ask the intentions of the new CO's as far as I can tell and these DE's seem to want to just add units regardless of merit.

Maybe questions of 'closed' and 'open' are not of primary importance?


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#36 Peregrinator

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 01:31 PM

SSScout included the Knights of Columbus in his list of groups who can charter scout units.

 

Not the Knights of Columbus.  The Catholic Church has instructed the KC's to not charter scout units anymore.

I think it was a KofC decision, not a Catholic Church decision.


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#37 Peregrinator

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 01:33 PM

Yes, the Catholic Church prefers that parishes charter scout units. 

What does that even mean? Most of the world doesn't have scout units that need to be "chartered."


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#38 NJCubScouter

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 06:05 PM

What does that even mean? Most of the world doesn't have scout units that need to be "chartered."

 

Most of the world also doesn't have a local-option policy where the option may only be exercised by a religious organization, and probably not by a fraternal organization affiliated with a religion.

 

That statement is not intended as a criticism.  I am a fan of the local option, and if CO's/units need to be reshuffled a little to make it work, I'm all for it.


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#39 David CO

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 07:35 PM

I think it was a KofC decision, not a Catholic Church decision.

 

It was the Pope's decision.  

 

As Chisos said in his post, the point was to keep the parish as the "focal point" of The Catholic Church's youth ministries.


Edited by David CO, 27 February 2017 - 07:47 PM.

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#40 fred johnson

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 11:09 AM

I think it was a KofC decision, not a Catholic Church decision.

 

LOL ... I love my Church, but I also am a bit of a pragmatist.  KofC chartering units exposes a large national organization to legal liabilities.  KofC has huge assets as it is also an insurance organization originally founded to help families of poorer Catholic workers insure each other.  Having KofC charter units exposes that insurance fund.  

Parishes are autonomous individual organizations.  When a volunteer in one parish does something wrong, it would not escalate into deeper pockets across all parishes. 

 

IMHO, this is also the right move.  "I think" huge deep pockets (assets) attracts the attention of those wanting to connect mistakes (crimes) to those deep pockets.  IMHO, overly deep pockets perverts justice.  If a parish fails to oversee a program, that parish should be sued, but not the whole nation.


Edited by fred johnson, 28 February 2017 - 11:31 AM.

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