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Boys and Girls (Co-Ed) Cub and Boy Scouts Are Coming


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#41 qwazse

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 12:49 PM

So, just so you know, there is no pilot for this   It's something someone made up and called scouting.  Trustworthy, not so much.  Putting yourself, your district, your CO at risk.   That's the reprocussions.   Calling something scouting that isn't does a disservice to those running the program.    Good luck with whatever that is being "run".  

@RichardB, thanks for the clarification.

This sounds like a bottom-up movement (home-grown pilot?) not unlike many we've seen, and we can look forward to seeing in the future. They seem somewhat careless about risk. Or maybe they've mitigated risk some other way (e.g., the CO purchasing increased liability coverage)? Or maybe they find the risk of not innovating overwhelming the stated risks of going "off the reservation?"


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#42 EmberMike

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 01:01 PM

...so they want to force open a place they're not wanted to make a point.

 

 

What's your evidence that the majority of BSA members are opposed to girl members? Or is it just your opinion, and so you assume that's a universally accepted point of view...

 

 

...Make no mistake, forcing open an all boy organization -- when there's a perfectly goo all girl option AND perfectly goo coed option -- is tearing down Boy Scouts.

 

So because other options exist, BSA going co-ed leads to the demise of BSA? I don't follow your logic. Why do the other groups even matter if it's your view that allowing girls in at all is so detrimental to the program? 


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#43 EmberMike

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 01:07 PM

One can put an exact reproduction of Abraham Lincoln in the wax museum, looks like Lincoln, push the button, talks and says the same thing Lincoln says, but it ain't Lincoln.

 

Sorry, Co-Ed Boy Scouting is not Boy Scouting no matter how many comparisons one wishes to point out. 

 

I find it strange that pure gasoline is sold at the same pump as high octane gasoline and ethanol next to that.  They are all the same, right?

 

 

It's still the same. Unless you're re-writig the handbooks and requirements, it's the same steps to get to the next rank, same requirements to earn Eagle. 

 

Your analogies make no sense. You're comparing things that were fundamentally different to begin with. No matter how many nonsensical comparisons you make, the BSA program as it's written today is the same program tomorrow even if girls are allowed. 


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#44 qwazse

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 01:07 PM

FWIW, yesterday I talked to a boy who crossed over to a troop on the opposite side of town from me. It was an odd conversation for him because he wasn't used to adults who knew much about scouting. (Background: the boy has 4 brothers -- two already boy scouts, and parents aren't campers.) Or, maybe he wasn't used to scouters who posed as Sunday School teachers!

 

He didn't see the sense of camping with girls. Basically, girls aren't interested in camping, as far as he can tell. I told him about my venturer who proudly wears her "Boy Scouts Italy" uniform and has been camping with her mates since cubs.

 

He replied. "That's them. We're us."


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#45 fred johnson

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 01:15 PM

I'm okay with co-ed scouting.  It's fine with me as long as we don't lower standards or change the program, which I don't think we would need to do.  

 

But on the flip side, I get frustrated with the inconsistent arguments.  For example, why celebrate WNBA or LPGA competition?  WNBA and LPGA competition levels are much lower than their rivals.  Seems like they should be farm leagues for the big shows and promote increasing skills and ability to get into the big shows.  Further, men should be able to compete in those leagues at the same wage levels as the women.  It seems unfair to promote a lower competition level at a higher wage for only that gender.  Women should have the opportunity to compete against men and men against women.  Same for military.  Why female only boot camps?  It should be full integrated jobs, housing, standards.  If men have to do 8 to 20 pull ups, so should women.  Same standard.   

 

Anyway, I am for co-ed scouting, but I do get tired of the inconsistent arguments.


Edited by fred johnson, 27 February 2017 - 01:17 PM.

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#46 Col. Flagg

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 03:24 PM

What's your evidence that the majority of BSA members are opposed to girl members? Or is it just your opinion, and so you assume that's a universally accepted point of view...

 

So because other options exist, BSA going co-ed leads to the demise of BSA? I don't follow your logic. Why do the other groups even matter if it's your view that allowing girls in at all is so detrimental to the program? 

 

Not my argument, so forgive me, but I thought I might offer my unsolicited view...since that's what such forums are about. ;)

 

I think @backpack was addressing the poll of members in 2013 prior to the policy change. As I recall the majority of members (folks like you and me) voted against the policy change. Wasn't it the voting members (whoever they are) that actually voted for the change? 

 

To your second point, BSA has a coed program, so the reason for Boy Scouts to go coed is what? Access to Eagle? 


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#47 Stosh

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 03:35 PM

Hmmm

 

Let me get this straight.  Co-ed Boy Scouts is the same as Boy Scouts.  Seems to be a lot of discussion about them not really being the same.  I would think the parts that are not really the same seems to be the focus All I'm saying is Boy Scouts and Co-ed Boy Scouts can not be the same thing or they wouldn't have bothered adding the words Co-ed.

 

What they teach is irrelevant.  Standard classroom curriculum is never taught by the same teacher the same way for every class.  It is adjusted for the audience.  Why is that?  It could mean that no matter how much one tries to jam a round peg in a square hole, it just isn't the same as putting a round peg in a round hole or a square peg in a square hole.  No matter how much one wants it to be, eventually one needs to accept reality rather than one's wishes and dreams. 


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#48 EmberMike

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 04:00 PM

Hmmm

 

Let me get this straight.  Co-ed Boy Scouts is the same as Boy Scouts.  Seems to be a lot of discussion about them not really being the same.  I would think the parts that are not really the same seems to be the focus All I'm saying is Boy Scouts and Co-ed Boy Scouts can not be the same thing or they wouldn't have bothered adding the words Co-ed.

 

What they teach is irrelevant.  Standard classroom curriculum is never taught by the same teacher the same way for every class.  It is adjusted for the audience.  Why is that?  It could mean that no matter how much one tries to jam a round peg in a square hole, it just isn't the same as putting a round peg in a round hole or a square peg in a square hole.  No matter how much one wants it to be, eventually one needs to accept reality rather than one's wishes and dreams. 

 

 

The program is the same, the requirements for every badge and rank can remain the same, there's really no need to change anything. One of the arguments one of the girls who wants to be an eagle scout has made is that she's followed along in everything her brother did on his trail to Eagle. She has already proven that the program does not need to change to accommodate girls. 

 

I'm really confused as to why all of a sudden the program would have to change just because it goes co-ed, when one of the biggest arguments for co-ed is that girls want to do the same stuff boys are doing.

 

It's also convenient that the voices for it no longer being the same program are also those against co-ed scouting. Did anyone in favor of co-ed scouting ever suggest the program should change if girls are included? I don't recall seeing any comments like that. 


Edited by EmberMike, 27 February 2017 - 04:00 PM.

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#49 Cambridgeskip

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 04:08 PM

Hmmm

 

Let me get this straight.  Co-ed Boy Scouts is the same as Boy Scouts.  Seems to be a lot of discussion about them not really being the same.  I would think the parts that are not really the same seems to be the focus All I'm saying is Boy Scouts and Co-ed Boy Scouts can not be the same thing or they wouldn't have bothered adding the words Co-ed.

 

What they teach is irrelevant.  Standard classroom curriculum is never taught by the same teacher the same way for every class.  It is adjusted for the audience.  Why is that?  It could mean that no matter how much one tries to jam a round peg in a square hole, it just isn't the same as putting a round peg in a round hole or a square peg in a square hole.  No matter how much one wants it to be, eventually one needs to accept reality rather than one's wishes and dreams. 

 

Stosh, I'll accept that there are some sensible arguments for having separate boys and girls scouting or youth provision of any sort, but seriously that is a tenuous argument.

 

The term coed is being used to simply distinguish between a possible future position for BSA and the current position. Nowhere in the world that has coed scouting (which is the vast majority of the world, not just Canada) calls it that as far as I can tell. They are simply scouts. Or the local translation of the word. And there's a reason for that, it's not really different.


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#50 Stosh

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 04:34 PM

It is a scientific fact that children react different to male adults than they do to female adults,  Daughters interact differently with mothers than fathers.  Same for sons.  Expectations for sons in the family is not the same for children in the same family.  These are a few of the most simple relationships dynamics.  Add to that kindergarten children react differently to male teachers than they do to female teachers, well, children up thorough high school do the same thing.  Boys act and react to the world differently when they are with a bunch of "guys" than when they are in mixed company, Gals act and react differently at slumber parties than they do at events where males are present.  Heck, Bachelor and Bachelorette parties wouldn't be the same if couples were invited.

 

So when it comes to the less sophisticated and impressionable ages. these issues are simply forced on them by adults who "know better". 

 

The program and activities might all be the same including the rather super dorky title of BOY Scouts for a co-ed group, but the dynamics of what is going on in the group will be altogether different.  Seriously, if scouting today is perceived as dorky, who's going to join as a coed group?  Lemme see..... Dorky girls who can't get a date if they tried or the entire cheerleading squad combined with the most popular gals that need all those dorky Boy Scouts lining up to ask for a date.

 

If I speak in the extreme, it's because it is this kind of dynamic which seems to be going over people's heads in the discussion. So what if the program is the same, so what if the ranks are the same, so what if the name on the registration is the same, the group that one ends up with will NOT be the same, nor will the interests, dynamics, and functioning of the group be the same.

 

I have worked more years with co-ed groups than I have in the 38+ years of being a Scouter.  Even a blind man listening closely will know what I"m talking about, it's not rocket science, but it is science.


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#51 Col. Flagg

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 05:14 PM

The program is the same, the requirements for every badge and rank can remain the same, there's really no need to change anything. One of the arguments one of the girls who wants to be an eagle scout has made is that she's followed along in everything her brother did on his trail to Eagle. She has already proven that the program does not need to change to accommodate girls. 

 

I'm really confused as to why all of a sudden the program would have to change just because it goes co-ed, when one of the biggest arguments for co-ed is that girls want to do the same stuff boys are doing.

 

It's also convenient that the voices for it no longer being the same program are also those against co-ed scouting. Did anyone in favor of co-ed scouting ever suggest the program should change if girls are included? I don't recall seeing any comments like that. 

 

If you expect adding girls to Scouts to be the last change Scouting makes to appease people, I invite you to relive 2013 through 2016.

 

YPT training will change. Council accommodations for coed units will change. Some feminist will get their nose out of joint that all the BSA documentation refers to "him" or "he" or "boy" and want it eliminated. Training will need to follow the Venturing model so ALL leaders are trained for coed program delivery.

 

There's loads more I am sure, but taking 2 mins to think about them these are the things that will change. There will be more...there always is, so no, it won't be the same program. Can't be.

 

@EmberMike, I think you are missing the point about those of us being against girls in Boy Scouts. We are NOT against girls in Scouting or "coed scouting" as you put it. We are against girls in BOY Scouting. Girls in Venturing is perfectly fine, so let's be clear on that point. 

 

Whether anyone in favor of girls in Boy Scouts suggests the program should be changed or not is irrelevant. You ARE changing the BOY SCOUT program by allowing girls. It's called BOY Scouts for a reason. Add girls it can't be BOY Scouts, can it? 


Edited by Col. Flagg, 27 February 2017 - 05:24 PM.

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#52 NJCubScouter

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 05:16 PM

One waterfountain works just as well as the other one.
 

Is that a racist comment?

 


It looks to me like an anti-racist comment. As well an an anti-gender-segregation comment. I get the analogy, though I don't necessarily agree with it. There is no shame is being a Girl Scout. There was shame involved in being relegated to what everybody knew was the second-class water fountain, even if it did work as well as the other one. (Which, I suspect, it probably didn't, just as the "separate but equal" schools were not really equal, but that's another discussion.)


Edited by NJCubScouter, 27 February 2017 - 05:16 PM.

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#53 EmberMike

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 06:01 PM

Add girls it can't be BOY Scouts, can it? 

 

They can change the name. In fact they almost certainly would if they go co-ed. 

 

This keeps coming up and it's ridiculous. The name of an organization is not an contract by which the organization is bound for eternity. Organizations change names all the time, and plenty of other scouting organizations made exactly that kind of change to go co-ed. Let's stop pretending that the name should have any bearing on the discussion of whether or not to allow girls. 


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#54 Stosh

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 06:09 PM

They can change the name. In fact they almost certainly would if they go co-ed. 

 

This keeps coming up and it's ridiculous. The name of an organization is not an contract by which the organization is bound for eternity. Organizations change names all the time, and plenty of other scouting organizations made exactly that kind of change to go co-ed. Let's stop pretending that the name should have any bearing on the discussion of whether or not to allow girls. 

 

Aha!  the magic words at last.... if girls join and they have to change the name, there will never be a female that earns the BSA Eagle rank, and that's the real goal after all.  It'll be kinda like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.  Good luck with that.  And yes, this is why we keep coming back to it,   Because to tell the first female who has gone through the program that she has jumped through all the hoops and the prize is right there only to realize all the dynamics to get there are different than they were for 100 years of scouting before her.  All those were BSA Eagles, the eagle in hand is not.


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#55 Back Pack

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 06:18 PM

They can change the name. In fact they almost certainly would if they go co-ed.

This keeps coming up and it's ridiculous. The name of an organization is not an contract by which the organization is bound for eternity. Organizations change names all the time, and plenty of other scouting organizations made exactly that kind of change to go co-ed. Let's stop pretending that the name should have any bearing on the discussion of whether or not to allow girls.

A name change is different than changing the program which you state won't happen. It's a boys program. Adding girls changes the program. Can't get any more fundamental than that.

But why go coed. What's Boy Scouts got that Venturing doesn't?

Edited by Back Pack, 27 February 2017 - 06:20 PM.

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#56 Eagledad

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 06:25 PM

It looks to me like an anti-racist comment. As well an an anti-gender-segregation comment. I get the analogy, though I don't necessarily agree with it. )


fehler's comment suggested racism is the source of appossing girls in the BSA. The comment is inappropriate and juvenile.

Barry
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#57 TryingToMom

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 11:11 AM

This is an interesting discussion thread, and one where many commenters have no concept of what Girl Scouting is/does. 

 

I get very tired of the argument that "girls already have Girl Scouts, it's just as good!"  NO, it's not.  Take it from a former scout, a leader, and a mother of a Girl Scout - their program has been utter garbage since their last overhaul about 6 years ago, and that's the way their HQ likes it.  Girls spend up to 9 months of their year doing nothing but fixating on selling products for the Girl Scout machine (who makes billions off of the girls labor, then acts like they're too broke to invest in any local programming for the girls).  As a leader, make no mistake, GS wants product sales to be all life consuming, and it's become one step shy of a pyramid scheme like Pampered Chef.  GS are closing camps left and right, but it's not because girls don't want to camp, as some have suggested on here (my own daughter camps in our private woods every chance she's allowed).  Girl in Girl Scouts aren't camping because families can't afford to participate when the financial aid rates that GS offers are still twice the cost of a full-priced week at BS camp - and girls don't even get to earn any badges or awards at most camps! 

Not to mention the lack of accountability for the girls and lack of respect from their parents.  You could never have ranks in GS because parents would stomp their feet and cry out that it's not fair how their daughter does no work, never shows up, and doesn't get the same awards as everyone else.  I can't tell you how many times parents have called the council on me to complain about just that problem!  You may see problem parents in Boy Scouts too, I have no doubt there, but you have no idea how much more respectful women tend to be towards male leaders over female ones.  And, the entire reason I became a leader is because the first troop my daughter joined had tons of money vanish (in the 5-digit range) and when I went with others to complain to council, they looked at us and said "after we get our money, it's none of our business what happens to the girl's portion!"  It's a ludicrisly bad program, with staff that has no clue or care about the girls they're supposedly working for, and it's been re-tooled to only cater to kids in metropolitan areas.  GS doesn't even pretend to care about anyone else, which is likely why GS keeps complaining about hemorraging members, because it's largely an arts and crafts mini-daycare these days.  They do not truly develop leadership programs, and most girls have to be Juliettes (ie non-troop members) by the time they're in 6th grade, because there is so little interest in the program as girls get older/more unhappy with their lack of options.  So, in short, Girl Scouts is NOT the same as Boy Scouts!

And, to users like Back Pack, who think Venturing is just the same as Boy Scouts, again, you are so very mistaken.  First, a female has to be 14 to join Venturing, whereas a Boy Scout can technically start at 10 1/2.  So Venturing is only open to girls who are roughly high school aged, meanwhile younger girls have a great, if not greater, interest in scouting too.  Second, you cannot earn merit badges or Boy Scout rank in Venturing, which, whether you want to admit it or not, are very respected things to earn - to the point that the military will give you an automatic promotion if you have Eagle Rank.  Third, I live in a highly active state for BSA, you can't go down the block without tripping over a troop, and, yet, with all that support for scouting here, the Venturing units exist on paper only.  They don't meet, they don't have activities, and every Crew leader I've met tells me the same thing - they're ready and willing to have their Crew be amazing, but there are too many competitors for time, money, etc to get the high school aged kids active. 

So, to say the GS/Venturing are the same quality as the Boy Scout program is like going into a hotel and being given the option to have a room with a bed, or a room with a pile of rocks.  Yes, I'm sure there are some areas where GS and Venturing are amazing and active and well executed, but that is not the case for many youth.  And no girl who would enjoy the BS program would mind being called a BOY Scout.  Just like women don't get offended if they join the military and get called a soldier, even though that always implies a male (just ask my mother the veteran, who can't wear a veteran hat without being asked if her husband/father served!).  When you love a program and you believe in what you're working towards, being called a Boy is not the issue they're concerned with.


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#58 Col. Flagg

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 12:15 PM

fehler's comment suggested racism is the source of appossing girls in the BSA. The comment is inappropriate and juvenile.

Barry

 

I couldn't tell either way. "One waterfountain works just as well as the other one" can be taken either way, so I wasn't really sure how to take it. To me the connection to segregation was evident but the message -- whether pro or con to segregation -- was totally unclear without more context or inference.


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#59 Eagledad

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 12:49 PM

I couldn't tell either way. "One waterfountain works just as well as the other one" can be taken either way, so I wasn't really sure how to take it. To me the connection to segregation was evident but the message -- whether pro or con to segregation -- was totally unclear without more context or inference.

Ok, I will give the benefit of the doubt.

 

Barry


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#60 Cubmaster Pete

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 02:50 AM

 

So, to say the GS/Venturing are the same quality as the Boy Scout program is like going into a hotel and being given the option to have a room with a bed, or a room with a pile of rocks.  Yes, I'm sure there are some areas where GS and Venturing are amazing and active and well executed, but that is not the case for many youth.  And no girl who would enjoy the BS program would mind being called a BOY Scout.  Just like women don't get offended if they join the military and get called a soldier, even though that always implies a male (just ask my mother the veteran, who can't wear a veteran hat without being asked if her husband/father served!).  When you love a program and you believe in what you're working towards, being called a Boy is not the issue they're concerned with.

 

I would have quoted your whole post, but the above will do. 

 

This is the same information I get from parents of girls who want to join cub scouting. It happens all the time. It's not the same, just not.

 

And I don't think anyone who wants a female in a traditional BSA program wants to change it, on the contrary they want their child in that program just the way it is. Am I admitting there would be changes because of female youth in a CS program? Yeah, probably. 

 

Just my $.02


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