Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

Transgender policy change


  • Please log in to reply
500 replies to this topic

#41 Eagle94-A1

Eagle94-A1

    Been there. Done that.

  • Members
  • 1644 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:54 AM

*
POPULAR

As funny as this may appear at first, does anyone want to be the SM of the first scout that get pregnant because YPT protocol wasn't in place?  They are all boys and they need to be treated equally as such.  There is nothing going to protect the adult leaders in YPT because until it gets settled in court, to protect oneself, they have to make arrangements for being co-ed when in fact they say they aren't a co-ed organization.

 

The ice has become too thin that after 45+ years of working with youth, it's time to err on the side of self protection here.

 

 I have reservations, serious concerns about this. I know  for a fact that BSA will remove long time volunteers at the hint of misconduct, even if investigated by law enforcement and shown to be false charges.  

 

Out of interested why did a few 'scouting' babies cost the BSA dearly ? 

 

There have been lawsuits about Scouting babies. In my neck of the woods, we had one female Venturer whose parents tried to sue because she "ran away" to work at summer camp with her boyfriend. Only reason it didn't go anywhere was because she was 18. Thankfully it all worked out in the end; the two Venturers are now married and the parents and daughter are reconciled. But it got interesting.

 

As for me personally, I have no idea what I am going to do. I'm still shocked by the announcement coming out as it did. here I was concerned about "Helicopter Mom" going to summer camp with her just crossed over son, and this announcement happens. I have lots of reservations, and I see this as a precursor to  Scouting going completely co-ed (I am thinking by 2020 it will happen, especially with the language the current CSE has been, and continues to use) 

 

But I am really concerned about my sons, and all of the boys. It seems as if there are getting to be fewer and fewer 'boys only" organizations as they are constantly getting attacked, yet having girls only organizations are not only OK, but encouraged.


  • 5

"Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt


#42 krypton_son

krypton_son

    All Around Troublemaker

  • Members
  • 112 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:57 AM

  It seems as if there are getting to be fewer and fewer 'boys only" organizations as they are constantly getting attacked, yet having girls only organizations are not only OK, but encouraged.

 

Hit the nail on the head.


  • 3

#43 Stosh

Stosh

    BSA Heretic

  • Members
  • 11368 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:11 AM

But I am really concerned about my sons, and all of the boys. It seems as if there are getting to be fewer and fewer 'boys only" organizations as they are constantly getting attacked, yet having girls only organizations are not only OK, but encouraged.

 

Because being male is toxic, overtly aggressive, dominant, and socially unacceptable.  The goal of equality is to make everyone the same i.e. feminine.  That's been the agenda now for 50 years.  The rise in ADD, ADHD being a male problem attests to the attempt to medicate the problem away.  Careers for all and paid child raising industry have become the new norm.  The traditional nuclear family has gone the way of the dinosaurs. 

 

Ever notice that all the ills we face today as a society have their root cause in the maleness of our culture?  Why would the BSA not be a target of disdain in that it promotes the male side of the human species.


  • 4

Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#44 hendrickms24

hendrickms24

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 176 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:16 AM

 In my neck of the woods, we had one female Venturer whose parents tried to sue because she "ran away" to work at summer camp with her boyfriend. Only reason it didn't go anywhere was because she was 18. Thankfully it all worked out in the end; the two Venturers are now married and the parents and daughter are reconciled. But it got interesting.

 

 

 

This issue in my eyes is not an issue.  She did not run away she left to work at a job.  Sounds like that the parents were way off base here.  


  • 0

#45 Stosh

Stosh

    BSA Heretic

  • Members
  • 11368 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:20 AM

People today have glossed over the reality that the law still states that parents of a pregnant minor can have the DNA proven father brought up on statutory rape charges.  This will put the boy in the National Sex Offender Database.  Parents tend to not do this, but there is still a legal possibility that this can happen.  How many times does the die get rolled to get the answer they want and what are the odds that it's not going to be that answer?  Everyone takes their chances.


  • 0

Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#46 hendrickms24

hendrickms24

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 176 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:22 AM

Because being male is toxic, overtly aggressive, dominant, and socially unacceptable.  The goal of equality is to make everyone the same i.e. feminine.  That's been the agenda now for 50 years.  The rise in ADD, ADHD being a male problem attests to the attempt to medicate the problem away.  Careers for all and paid child raising industry have become the new norm.  The traditional nuclear family has gone the way of the dinosaurs. 

 

Ever notice that all the ills we face today as a society have their root cause in the maleness of our culture?  Why would the BSA not be a target of disdain in that it promotes the male side of the human species.

Stosh,

 

I could not say it better.   A woman was complaining to a male friend of mine about her not finding a good male that not soft.  He told her he was glad to hear it.  Society and women like her has been pushing for the softer or feminine Male.  Now what are we seeing more young men more and more staying in their parents house jobless.   Connection I would say so. 


Edited by hendrickms24, 31 January 2017 - 11:25 AM.

  • 0

#47 David CO

David CO

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 737 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:36 AM

My school has a co-ed Outdoor Education program.  Our security/safety procedures in OE are very different from those in our Boy Scout unit.  The kids in OE are never without adult supervision.  We even have a couple of adults stay up all night to do "guard duty" in the kid's camp.  

 

I can't imagine that my CO would allow a co-ed scout unit to operate under the same rules/policies that our current scout unit enjoys.  We would have to become more like the Outdoor Education program.

 

Assuming that the CO will continue to charter a Boy Scout unit, which is not at all certain, this is probably the end of the semi-autonomous boy-led program.  It will have to be an adult-run, adult-supervised, and adult-led program.


Edited by David CO, 31 January 2017 - 11:44 AM.

  • 2

#48 Eagledad

Eagledad

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 5688 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:10 PM

Out of interested why did a few 'scouting' babies cost the BSA dearly ? 

Somebody or somebodies sued. He didn't say who.


  • 0

"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#49 fred johnson

fred johnson

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 1319 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:25 PM

Because being male is toxic, overtly aggressive, dominant, and socially unacceptable.  The goal of equality is to make everyone the same i.e. feminine.  That's been the agenda now for 50 years.  The rise in ADD, ADHD being a male problem attests to the attempt to medicate the problem away.  Careers for all and paid child raising industry have become the new norm.  The traditional nuclear family has gone the way of the dinosaurs. 

 

Ever notice that all the ills we face today as a society have their root cause in the maleness of our culture?  Why would the BSA not be a target of disdain in that it promotes the male side of the human species.

 

So true.


  • 0

#50 ParaSloth

ParaSloth

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:26 PM

What is the Girl Scouts' position on serving transgender youth?  Girl Scouts is proud to be the premiere leadership organization for girls in the country. Placement of transgender youth is handled on a case-by-case basis, with the welfare and best interests of the child and the members of the troop/group in question a top priority. That said, if the child is recognized by the family and school/community as a girl and lives culturally as a girl, then Girl Scouts is an organization that can serve her in a setting that is both emotionally and physically safe.

 

How does Girl Scouts' position on serving transgender youth apply to situations involving camping or volunteers? These situations are rare and are considered individually with the best interests of all families in mind. Should any girl requiring special accommodations wish to camp, GSUSA recommends that the local council makes similar accommodation that schools across the country follow in regard to changing, sleeping arrangements, and other travel-related activities. With respect to volunteers, Girl Scouts welcomes both male and female adult volunteers and has developed appropriate safeguards regarding roles and responsibilities to ensure that girls receive the proper supervision and support.

 

Cut/paste from their site.  I was curious how they handled things.  Like them, I would like to see the placement handled within BSA like it states above - with the members of not only the individuals but also the pack/troop/group in question a top priority.  We, as a CO, should have the option of accepting/rejecting a transgender member.  Also - interesting they state "...if the child is recognized by the family and school/community as a girl and lives culturally as a girl ... "

 

For the second FAQ - I'd love to know how this actually takes place/works out in their camps.  One thing they state, "With respect to volunteers, Girl Scouts welcomes both male and female adult volunteers ... "  While they state this, the many Girl Scout leaders and dads I have spoke to state this isn't the case.  Dad's are not welcome.


  • 0

#51 fred johnson

fred johnson

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 1319 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:30 PM

This is a reactive and likely interim decision. The BSA should have allowed local units the "option" to remove gender identity from membership requirements. In a week, there will be another lawsuit arguing that if a transgender (biological) girl can join then a biological girl should as well.

 

David CO makes a good point about requiring female leaders in units.

 

One person tents next.

 

Agreed that it is going to be here eventually.  It will happen.  BSA should get out of the membership selection business and let units set their membership to reflect the values of their charter org.

 

"one person tents" ... I would not be against it.  My experience is that scouts behave better when there are fewer in the tent.  I always cringe if someone brings a cabin tent.


  • 1

#52 perdidochas

perdidochas

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2102 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:34 PM

Why? What do you think would happen?

 

Well, as a man, I would have no idea how to advise, etc., a girl having her first period. Since the pretense is that this girl is actually  a "boy" there is no requirement for a female leader to be on the trip.  I just think it would make for a lot of complications.  The YPT implications are enormous. 


  • 0

#53 perdidochas

perdidochas

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2102 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:35 PM

I imagine no different than all boy units with female SM/ASMs.  Regardless, BSA is asexual in my opinion.  Our unit has never had husband/wife leader team before but it has been discussed.  The Troop would insist on separate tents for even a married couple.

An all boy  unit has to have a male present on all campouts. A TG "boy" would not be required to have  a female present, because then it would imply that she was a girl, and she does not want to be treated as one.  My guess is that in the future, Boy Scout Troops will have to have coed leadership present on all campouts.


Edited by perdidochas, 31 January 2017 - 12:36 PM.

  • 0

#54 David CO

David CO

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 737 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:51 PM

I think some of you underestimate the potential for hypocrisy at BSA headquarters.  BSA will say that the girls can register as boys, and then they will require that female scout leaders be at all their activities.


  • 1

#55 hendrickms24

hendrickms24

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 176 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:52 PM

An all boy  unit has to have a male present on all campouts. A TG "boy" would not be required to have  a female present, because then it would imply that she was a girl, and she does not want to be treated as one.  My guess is that in the future, Boy Scout Troops will have to have coed leadership present on all campouts.

There goes majority of the campouts.   I had a hard time getting an Adult of any sex to come on troop campouts.  The best way would if you want your TG to come camping you need to come with.  


  • 0

#56 ParaSloth

ParaSloth

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:58 PM

1. Would female leaders be "required" for outings (like the Venturing policy).  I think not.  The whole (technical to transgender) point here is that that child, for ALL intents and purposes is supposed to be treated as if they were (in this case) a boy.  To have female leadership, only for this reason defeats that purpose, and make it that the child is being treated differently which is exactly what they do not want.  Current YPT rules for leaders still apply - two deep leadership, no one-on-one.  This will cover the leaders' behaviors.  As for youth on youth - see #3 below.

 

 

Adult Supervision/Coed Activities

Male and female adult leaders must be present for all overnight coed Scouting trips and outings, even those including parent and child. Both male and female adult leaders must be 21 years of age or older, and one must be a registered member of the BSA.  (http://www.scouting....Protection.aspx)

The issue is what's going to go down in the court of law when something unfortunate does happen here.  Even if the person identifies as a male, they are still a female (i.e., female identifying as a male), so did you do your due diligence to protect this person?  


  • 0

#57 krypton_son

krypton_son

    All Around Troublemaker

  • Members
  • 112 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:16 PM

Even if the person identifies as a male, they are still a female (i.e., female identifying as a male),

 

While I completely agree with you, I have to ask if that matters.  Is it worth a law suit to ensure that they're protected as a female if they insist that they aren't?  Personally I feel like if they make it such a big issue and want to be "boys" treat them like boys.  Let them camp with the real boys, shower with the real boys, etc.  It's like women in the military.  If they're going to make such a big deal about it, fine, put them in the front lines just like the men.  If you start treating them differently, you're open to all kinds of legal issues.


  • 0

#58 David CO

David CO

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 737 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:34 PM

While I completely agree with you, I have to ask if that matters.  Is it worth a law suit to ensure that they're protected as a female if they insist that they aren't?  Personally I feel like if they make it such a big issue and want to be "boys" treat them like boys.  Let them camp with the real boys, shower with the real boys, etc.  It's like women in the military.  If they're going to make such a big deal about it, fine, put them in the front lines just like the men.  If you start treating them differently, you're open to all kinds of legal issues.

 

My CO would never go for that.  We would not put a child in danger in order to make a political statement.  We would also not put a child in danger because BSA wants to make a political statement.

 

Yes, it does matter.  It is worth a lawsuit to protect a child from an unreasonable risk of harm.  The real question for CO's will be, "Is it worth a lawsuit to have a Boy Scout troop?"


Edited by David CO, 31 January 2017 - 01:53 PM.

  • 0

#59 Tampa Turtle

Tampa Turtle

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2443 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:38 PM

Lordy lordy all this period talk! Your giving me the vapors. Seems, in the rare case that would happen, to be another scouting opportunity for improvisation and what not. Good reason to have a necker on hand I suppose.

 

I've had to deal with autistic kids, sociopathic boys, bedwetters, and a kid with a cancer port. I suppose I can deal, in the unlikely event, with this one.

 

What I REALLY want to know does this mean I need to attend an additional training course and if so how much of time will it take.


  • 4

#60 krypton_son

krypton_son

    All Around Troublemaker

  • Members
  • 112 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:40 PM

What I REALLY want to know does this mean I need to attend an additional training course and if so how much of time will it take.

 

 

Oh, I would say that that's almost a given.


  • 1




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users


IPB Skin By Virteq