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Transgender policy change


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#21 bearess

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 07:34 AM

Well worded statement, and so much better than dragging it out for 15 years.

I'm sure this has been happening to some degree for the past 10-15 years, just 'under the radar'. I'm 100% sure I've never provided a copy of my sons birth certificates to BSA. I suspect that children who identify as boys have been registering locally as boys and nobody has known or said anything.
This is the right thing to do and the right time to do it.
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#22 blw2

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 07:46 AM

bowing to 'political correctness'.  A very dangerous thing me thinks.

 

I'd hate to be on the campout when that boy has his first period.

bewa ha ha!!  Funny!!!

 

 

BSA just needs to go coed.   Their is no reason not to do it. Heck the first thing my son said was they just need to let girls in.

No kidding.  Whether you Agree about coed or not, that is exactly where it is heading and this whole business is just the muddy zone in the middle.

 

Cut to the chase BSA and change your name already!!!


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#23 Stosh

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 07:57 AM

I'd hate to be on the campout when that boy has his first period.

 

 

bowing to 'political correctness'.  A very dangerous thing me thinks.

 

bewa ha ha!!  Funny!!!

 

 

No kidding.  Whether you Agree about coed or not, that is exactly where it is heading and this whole business is just the muddy zone in the middle.

 

Cut to the chase BSA and change your name already!!!

 

As funny as this may appear at first, does anyone want to be the SM of the first scout that get pregnant because YPT protocol wasn't in place?  They are all boys and they need to be treated equally as such.  There is nothing going to protect the adult leaders in YPT because until it gets settled in court, to protect oneself, they have to make arrangements for being co-ed when in fact they say they aren't a co-ed organization.

 

The ice has become too thin that after 45+ years of working with youth, it's time to err on the side of self protection here.


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#24 Nomaad

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 08:07 AM

Correct me if I am wrong but this looks like they have left it to the states gender identity policies and it clearly says that the unit will help them find a suitable program. That kinda means to me that maybe for most of us nothing will really change. I believe here in NC we are still of the notion that your birth gender is the correct determination.

Thanks
B
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#25 krypton_son

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 08:17 AM

The ice has become too thin that after 45+ years of working with youth, it's time to err on the side of self protection here.

I agree 100%.  We live in a world with too many lawyers and people ready to sue a the drop of a hat.  It's an unfortunate thing that people need to worry more about protecting themselves then the youth, but I'm afraid that it's definitely come to that.


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#26 Oldscout448

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 08:44 AM

So everyone has to sleep in a one man tent now?    Seems the safest option.

 

What do we do when the girl who decided she was a boy changes her mind and goes back to being a girl?

 

To Irving it's all about the $,  I am betting their " weeks of debate" were mostly about the cost of legal fees and loss of corporate sponsors vs: cost of a few new COs, and drop in FOS donations from a few conservatives.

 

Any takers?


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#27 ParaSloth

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 08:49 AM

Our local camp has a main bathhouse with one section for male adults, another for female adults, and a third (larger) for the boys.  I guess first order is to raise funds to tear down that bathouse and create another to fit the new policy.  Those concerned with the YPT aspect have some valid concerns which shouldn't be dismissed.  This policy has secondary and tertiary effects. 

 

The mother of the 8-yr old girl identifying as a boy said, "she would like for her son to re-join the Scouts, but only if the leader who kicked him out leaves."  Understanding this lady is upset, but I'm suspecting the leader was following the policy at the time.  How intolerant of her.

 

There's so much going on in my head.  Honestly as a Cub Scout leader I enjoy the family camp setting where the boys play with the girl siblings. I also enjoy working with female scout leaders.  So in that aspect if BSA was changed to "whatever" Scouts of America I'd be fine with that.  But on the other hand - what hurts is that I had an organization where my boy was being brought up among other boys, to deal with boy issues and learn values associated with growing up as a male.  Sometimes boys just need to be with other boys, under the influence of a male role model(s).  Why does society want to get away from this?  They can deal with all this other stuff at school.  

 

So there you are.  I'm sure you can tell I'm a white Christian male living in the south - your license to now attack me but all in the spirit of scouting.


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#28 Stosh

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 08:59 AM

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Keep it in mind the check box on the application is filled out by the parents, NOT THE CHILD.  It is signed by the parents, NOT THE CHILD.  If the parents wish to lie on the application form, so be it, but that is the only thing that is going to apply when the issue of some scouter being accused of something sexually inappropriate.  I'm sure the courts will err on the side of the child's welfare, not what some parent checked on the application and the end result is the Scouter is out of scouting and will forever be on the National Sexual Offender Database.  Good luck with that.  (And where will BSA be in all this?  Right there by your side defending you all the way.... Riiiiight!)


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#29 Gwaihir

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 09:08 AM

Keep it in mind the check box on the application is filled out by the parents, NOT THE CHILD.  It is signed by the parents, NOT THE CHILD.  If the parents wish to lie on the application form, so be it, but that is the only thing that is going to apply when the issue of some scouter being accused of something sexually inappropriate.  I'm sure the courts will err on the side of the child's welfare, not what some parent checked on the application and the end result is the Scouter is out of scouting and will forever be on the National Sexual Offender Database.  Good luck with that.  (And where will BSA be in all this?  Right there by your side defending you all the way.... Riiiiight!)

 

pretty much this. 


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#30 gumbymaster

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 09:45 AM

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For better or worse, a couple of points ...

 

1. Would female leaders be "required" for outings (like the Venturing policy).  I think not.  The whole (technical to transgender) point here is that that child, for ALL intents and purposes is supposed to be treated as if they were (in this case) a boy.  To have female leadership, only for this reason defeats that purpose, and make it that the child is being treated differently which is exactly what they do not want.  Current YPT rules for leaders still apply - two deep leadership, no one-on-one.  This will cover the leaders' behaviors.  As for youth on youth - see #3 below.

 

2. Bathrooms/showers - see above.  This is the part of the whole transgender debate that I have never been comfortable with.  While that child desires not to be treated differently, for their comfort level; that still puts the other boys/parents in the uncomfortable position - for lack of a better term, of being exposed to the other gender's genitalia - which many more conservative parents may not want.  Anyone building a new facility would be foolish not to just go with individual ADA compliant toilet facilities and individual shower stalls to forgo all of these issues now and in the future.

 

3. Sex / Pregnancy / etc. - This one is also complicated because gender identity and gender attraction may not be in alignment; but that said, (other than the risk of pregnancy) should probably be treated as with homosexual youth members - Sex is not appropriate in the scouting venue no matter who or how or what.  Anything else is a violation of Scout policy and the scout's own oath/laws and should be addressed accordingly.  I have not idea what the reasonable precautions are to take here for monitoring and preventing inappropriate youth behaviors, but that's been true since the membership change - its just that the risks and consequences could become more long term now.

 

4. Girls joining because they want to and this gives them a mechanism.  ANY youth member can be removed if they do not follow the Scout oath and law.  If the girl who wants to be a scout submits an application stating they are a boy; to me it would not be inappropriate to inquire if they are, in fact, living and identifying as a boy when not in the scout unit.  If they are, it fits the policy, if not then they are not being trustworthy/honest just to get something they want and are not living the scout oath and law and may be dismissed.

 

In the end, I agree with other comments that eventually the Boy Scouts will probably become the whatever scouts boys / girls / and any combination thereof before too long.  While I mostly support this, I wish there was some way to preserve letting boys be boys without all this other stuff put on top of them.  I'm not sure what our society may look like in a generation or two after we've domesticated all the males into PC drones.  It might be better, but it might not be.  Not that I am trying to defend the crass, misogynistic male stereotype, but somewhere there must be a balance.  I like to think that BSA was pretty good and finding that balance before - maybe we still can.


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#31 Fehler

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 09:55 AM

Proud of the BSA. 


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#32 Eagledad

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:02 AM

Proud of the BSA. 

Politics and pragmatism rarely go hand in hand.

 

Barry


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"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#33 tyke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:04 AM

yay to the BSA.  Reading posts on here sometimes make me face palm lots. Lots of the  fears / concerns are so alarmist. I run a coed scout group as they all are in the UK and have been for 35 years. I have got girls in my troop, both scouts and cubs,  we do not have any female ladies, do I worry about them getting pregnant, having a period on camp, separate tents, showers etc, no, as all of these are easily solved by being pragmatic and sensible and its nothing to worry about. If I had a trans kid, then nothing would change as generally the kids don't really care, its usually the adults that get all out of sorts about these things.


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#34 perdidochas

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:09 AM

I'd hate to be on the campout when that boy has his first period.

 

I agree. 


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#35 tyke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:12 AM

I agree.


Why? What do you think would happen?
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#36 DadScouts

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:23 AM

So what's the YPT protocol for "co-ed" units with male SM/ASM's? 

I imagine no different than all boy units with female SM/ASMs.  Regardless, BSA is asexual in my opinion.  Our unit has never had husband/wife leader team before but it has been discussed.  The Troop would insist on separate tents for even a married couple.


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#37 Eagledad

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:26 AM

When I was a Scoutmaster, I directed the program so that if the patrol went on a campout in the woods without adults, the patrol would have the exact same experience they have with adults 100 yards away. I don't believe in "boys will be boys", I believe in developing the discipline of living by the Oath and Law. 

 

My approach may or may not appear realistic to many leaders, but it worked for me. However, I can understand the concern. I was talking to a professional once who told me that the high level professionals had some concerns about mixing genders at the older ages. I'm not really familiar with the camping policies of Crews today, but he did told me that there are a few scouting babies in the 90's from Crew outings and it cost the BSA dearly. He refuse to give any details other than the crews were camping without adults.

 

So with all due respect, when I hear someone from another country tell us that it's not a big deal and the adults are just over reacting, I don't believe we are getting the whole story. Our program is turning into an after school program that has to be heavily monitored by adults. With these new requirements on sexuality at all ages, how could it not!

 

Barry  


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"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#38 tyke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:29 AM

I imagine no different than all boy units with female SM/ASMs.  Regardless, BSA is asexual in my opinion.  Our unit has never had husband/wife leader team before but it has been discussed.  The Troop would insist on separate tents for even a married couple.

separate tents for a married couple :o thats well mad.

 

Would I be able to share a tent with my scout leader as we're a couple, but not married ? 


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#39 tyke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:31 AM

When I was a Scoutmaster, I directed the program so that if the patrol went on a campout in the woods without adults, the patrol would have the exact same experience they have with adults 100 yards away. I don't believe in "boys will be boys", I believe in developing the discipline of living by the Oath and Law. 

 

My approach may or may not appear realistic to many leaders, but it worked for me. However, I can understand the concern. I was talking to a professional once who told me that the high level professionals had some concerns about mixing genders at the older ages. I'm not really familiar with the camping policies of Crews today, but he did told me that there are a few scouting babies in the 90's from Crew outings and it cost the BSA dearly. He refuse to give any details other than the crews were camping without adults.

 

So with all due respect, when I hear someone from another country tell us that it's not a big deal and the adults are just over reacting, I don't believe we are getting the whole story. Our program is turning into an after school program that has to be heavily monitored by adults. With these new requirements on sexuality at all ages, how could it not!

 

Barry  

Out of interested why did a few 'scouting' babies cost the BSA dearly ? 


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#40 krypton_son

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:36 AM

Out of interested why did a few 'scouting' babies cost the BSA dearly ? 

 

Imagine the lawsuits when the parents find out that their kids were having sex at BSA campouts. 


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