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Tour Plan?

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#21 mashmaster

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:16 PM

I have no problems with a simplified tour permit.  The current one is a pain in the butt.  I actually think it is a good idea to let council know where we are going but having to fill out the same info every month is a pain, and since we don't know the actual attendees until a week before council always makes them send us a warning that it is within 2 weeks of the trip.


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#22 T2Eagle

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 10:27 PM

I won't miss them.

 

I'm curious, has anyone ever had to cancel a trip because Council denied a permit, back when they were permits, or had to substantively change a plan because they were remiss in their plannings?

 

My guess is that thousands upon thousands of these things have been filed over the years without any appreciable effect on anyone's behavior.

 

I cannot think of any reason Council would need to know where my troop was going.  They're not going to be there to prevent any problems or help in any emergency, and if something does go wrong it's a near certainty that we'll be back home before they would know about it, so why would it matter that they knew of a particular campout ahead of time.


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#23 Back Pack

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 07:12 AM

I won't miss them.
 
I'm curious, has anyone ever had to cancel a trip because Council denied a permit, back when they were permits, or had to substantively change a plan because they were remiss in their plannings?
 
My guess is that thousands upon thousands of these things have been filed over the years without any appreciable effect on anyone's behavior.
 
I cannot think of any reason Council would need to know where my troop was going.  They're not going to be there to prevent any problems or help in any emergency, and if something does go wrong it's a near certainty that we'll be back home before they would know about it, so why would it matter that they knew of a particular campout ahead of time.


Yes actually. My pack was going to a state park that was not on the council list of approved facilities. We were told we can't go. This was before the online form.

We have units in our district which don't plan or staff their events to the minimum of the tour plan. As much as I hate paperwork it only takes 10 mins to fill this out and print it. Only needed if we go out of Council. Not a big deal and we will continue to do them even after they are taken down.
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#24 SSScout

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 08:08 AM

Well, when you come right down to it .....

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=3nDhzrSFef4


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#25 Col. Flagg

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 10:40 AM

Ok - I'll admit to being amused if someone has indeed pranked the councils here.

 

Well any SE worth his weight would check something like this before they post it. If not, they should be removed. You simply do not post stuff until you've verified its authenticity when you run a business.


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#26 SSScout

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 12:27 PM

Well, when you get right down to it ....

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=3nDhzrSFef4   I forgive the enterer for her spelling problems and lyric transposing.


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#27 Stosh

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 12:40 PM

Well any SE worth his weight would check something like this before they post it. If not, they should be removed. You simply do not post stuff until you've verified its authenticity when you run a business.

 

If nothing else, some clarifying statement from National would be nice.


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Stosh

 

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#28 Cleveland Rocks

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:43 AM

More councils listing it:

 

Mount Baker Council: https://www.mountbak...lan-terminated/

 

Far East Council: http://www.fareastco...olongerrequired

 

Buckeye Council: http://www.buckeyeco...News/TourPermit

 

Three Rivers Council: https://www.facebook...154621427323768


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#29 Stosh

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:42 AM

The most important source of information is National.  What are THEY saying about it? 


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Stosh

 

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#30 NealOnWheels

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:02 PM

The initials on the FAQ http://files.constan...1ac99a7d6d8.pdfappear to be Richard Bourlon's.  Perhaps he could clarify the issue.


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#31 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 03:57 PM

Yes actually. My pack was going to a state park that was not on the council list of approved facilities. We were told we can't go.

 

At least your council is doing what it is suppose to do. I not have seen a list of approved camps for Cub Scouts to use in the 8 years I've been involved with Cubs.  Then again about 5-6 years back, we still had members of the council camping committee saying "Cubs don't need to camp."

 

Regarding Tour permits, planners, whatever they are called, I'm wondering if international travel will need it still?


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"Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt


#32 qwazse

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 05:48 PM

I never had to file tour plans as a scout.

This doesn't have to be an overwhelming process .... list when you're going, when you'll return, what you'll be doing and where, who will be helping you. Let everyone's parents know what's up.

I assure my scouts that they will have arrived when that's how they operate.
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#33 NJCubScouter

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:08 AM

The most important source of information is National.  What are THEY saying about it? 

 

It appears that National is relying on the councils to distribute this information.  All of the links that people have posted above have the same FAQ from National.  In some cases the councils have posted the FAQ as their own Facebook post, in other cases they simply link to the document (with the "Updated 3/10/17 by RRB" still on it.)  Why they are choosing to do it this way, I'm not sure. 


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#34 fred johnson

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:44 AM

I often find the unmentioned reasons out-weight the mentioned reasons.  How about ...

  • Councils never use the information.
  • Councils can't depend on the plans as most units forget to submit.
  • Councils can't depend on the plans as the plans have little useful data.
  • Councils have liability if they don't actually evaluate plans.
  • Councils have liability if they don't staff sufficiently to evaluate the plans and act on the evaluation.
  • Councils have liability if they knowingly have member units in good standing that camp and do activities without actually submitting plans.
  • Councils have liability if they approve plans that have bad / wrong information.  ( i.e. Why did you approve a tour plan with a revoked DL ?  Why did you ??? )

IMHO, makes me wonder if the online tour plans was the trigger for canceling the plans as online data was easily to analyze for ...

  • how many troops never fill them out
  • how many troops fill them out inconsistently
  • how many troops fill them out wrong
  • how many troops did not list key risk info
  • councils with submitted plans that were never rejected that violated BSA rules.

Edited by fred johnson, 20 March 2017 - 08:57 AM.

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#35 Col. Flagg

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:28 AM

 

IMHO, makes me wonder if the online tour plans was the trigger for canceling the plans as online data was easily to analyze for ...

 

Interesting idea. I wonder, too, if BSA hasn't read through some of the tour plans -- or at least done an analysis of complete versus incomplete ones -- to determine if they are worthwhile.

 

Since they are online and don't have a cost associated with them, I can't imagine it is a cost issue. Unless , of course, BSA has a group that reviews them or has to review them periodically for insurance purposes.


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#36 Stosh

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:50 PM

It appears that National is relying on the councils to distribute this information.  All of the links that people have posted above have the same FAQ from National.  In some cases the councils have posted the FAQ as their own Facebook post, in other cases they simply link to the document (with the "Updated 3/10/17 by RRB" still on it.)  Why they are choosing to do it this way, I'm not sure. 

 Sounds like a case of tell Gladys Kravitz and she'll take care of it.

 

REALLY a poor way of handing things like this.


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Stosh

 

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#37 SSScout

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:42 PM

Our council has a Tour Plan Coordinator.   He name is Helen Weight.    That is who we tell folks to go to.


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#38 NJCubScouter

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 08:31 AM

 Sounds like a case of tell Gladys Kravitz and she'll take care of it.

 

REALLY a poor way of handing things like this.

 

One might think that National would have a standard way of distributing information like this.  I think it's fine to put the info on both the National and council web sites since more people probably read the council sites than the National site.  But in this case, it does not yet appear to be on the National web site (at least, it wasn't when I looked a few days ago) and it is on different councils' web sites in different ways, which creates confusion.

 

Meanwhile, it does not seem to be on my own council's web page at all, at least it is not on the home page or the news page.

 

And all this assumes that 100% percent of people are getting their Scouting information from the Internet, which is not the case.


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#39 ParkMan

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 10:29 AM

Would something like this be a council decision? National perhaps isn't requiring then, but councils can continue to do so?
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#40 NJCubScouter

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 11:46 AM

Would something like this be a council decision? National perhaps isn't requiring then, but councils can continue to do so?

 

In theory, National could have left this up to each council.  However, the documents that are linked in the various posts earlier in this thread suggest that this is a nationwide decision and is applicable to all councils.  On the other hand, I am again pinging @RichardB in hopes that he will stop by and clarify this situation.


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