Jump to content



Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Trans Scouting (Use other thread for new policy)


  • Please log in to reply
140 replies to this topic

#41 Eagledad

Eagledad

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6055 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:50 PM

I'm not all that concerned about the 'natural behavior' of scout leaders, whatever it is you mean by 'natural behavior', as long as the YP is not violated.

How can a person role model for someone they believe is possibly harming themselves? It would be role modeling the act of not caring.

 

Barry


  • 0

"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#42 NJCubScouter

NJCubScouter

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 6315 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:50 PM

I am saying that the BSA should not take sides at all. I get the feeling you are taking my opinion as action for everyone. I'm am specifically talking about the BSA.


I thought you were also talking about the parents of the youths who are in this situation. If not, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Edited by NJCubScouter, 28 December 2016 - 03:52 PM.

  • 0

#43 Eagledad

Eagledad

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6055 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:54 PM

Of course, there is always "local option."

Here we are again.

Yes, but then you get in trouble with the activist who insist having a choice is the same as admitting the behavior isn't normal. There isn't a good choice for the BSA no matter what they choose to do, so I say "Do no Harm'.

 

Barry


  • 0

"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#44 Eagledad

Eagledad

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6055 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:57 PM

I thought you were also talking about the parents of the youths who are in this situation. If not, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

No I wasn't thinking about that. I really don't have problems with the parents if they aren't considering becoming registered leaders because they respect the program enough to put their boys in it. We had several gay parents of scouts in our area. They gave a lot of their time and support.

 

Barry


  • 0

"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#45 CalicoPenn

CalicoPenn

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3178 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 04:05 PM

I am saying that the BSA should not take sides at all. I get the feeling you are taking my opinion as action for everyone. I'm am specifically talking about the BSA. I can agree with this - its too bad the BSA has chosen sides in this situation already. They should have punted it back to the sponsoring organization to make the decision instead.
  • 4

#46 sst3rd

sst3rd

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 448 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 04:05 PM

Although I was a Cub Scout, I never was a Cub Scout leader. So the many varied thoughts and opinions are very interesting. My many years as a Boy Scout leader, I'm thinking how I would approach this situation if the boy was a 10 year old (AOL) or just turning 11. Having been away from the SM position for a couple of years, I clearly remember the complexity of the position, and how all of the other leaders and parents leaned on you to do what's right, and complain when things aren't always "peachy."

 

The last thing I would want to have to worry about is having a transgendered boy join the troop. The parents know this organization is for boys. It's not for girls who think they're boys. Period. Even if everybody but me knew he was really a girl, why do I have to be put in this position. There's too much to deal with already. Give me a break!!!!!

 

Oh yeah, now I remember (after 36 years) why I retired as a SM. Mostly great times, but seriously; can't we just keep it simple? And this is the perfect time for me to tell these parents if they want their transgendered child to have a scouting experience, then start a scouting type program for transgendered children.


  • 0

#47 NJCubScouter

NJCubScouter

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 6315 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 04:07 PM

Yes, but then you get in trouble with the activist who insist having a choice is the same as admitting the behavior isn't normal. There isn't a good choice for the BSA no matter what they choose to do, so I say "Do no Harm'.


It's deja vu all over again.

I am not concerned about "trouble" from "activists." There are still some people ("activists", if you like) who don't like the fact that BSA gave the option to religious-organization CO's to continue to exclude openly gay adult leaders in 2015. I supported it at the time and I still support it, because I thought it was the best thing for the BSA and the youth it serves. So far, it has held up. Let's just make the right decision, and the "activists" (on both sides) can do what they wish.
  • 0

#48 qwazse

qwazse

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6841 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 04:16 PM

Yes, but then you get in trouble with the activist who insist having a choice is the same as admitting the behavior isn't normal. There isn't a good choice for the BSA no matter what they choose to do, so I say "Do no Harm'. ...

 

I am saying that the BSA should not take sides at all. I get the feeling you are taking my opinion as action for everyone. I'm am specifically talking about the BSA. I can agree with this - its too bad the BSA has chosen sides in this situation already. They should have punted it back to the sponsoring organization to make the decision instead.

 

My strong suspicion is that the "local option" was divided. Locally, some parent didn't like how their neighbor was parenting their girl-by-biology in front of their boy. (Full disclosure: My suspicion is based on my experience getting a phone call from my director of field service. Not a good day. But there's my bias.)

 

The mom certainly checked "male" in the youth application. Unless someone punched "female" on internet rechartering, there is no way a BSA would have a clue about this female-by-biology. More likely, someone didn't like how the local option was exercised and made a stink.

 

Or worse, nobody made a stink. But some activist decided to promote this kid as a utopian example of how trans kids are just like any other kid of the identified sex. Then, someone in council saw the news-clipping and poured gasoline on the fire.

 

@NJCubScouter, each one of my kids had at least one classmate (and one other in a grade above/below) looking toward reassignment surgery. If that is the pattern and our our tiny school district is representative, the rate is >.5%.


Edited by qwazse, 28 December 2016 - 04:21 PM.

  • 0

#49 Eagledad

Eagledad

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6055 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 04:18 PM

It's deja vu all over again.

I am not concerned about "trouble" from "activists." There are still some people ("activists", if you like) who don't like the fact that BSA gave the option to religious-organization CO's to continue to exclude openly gay adult leaders in 2015. I supported it at the time and I still support it, because I thought it was the best thing for the BSA and the youth it serves. So far, it has held up. Let's just make the right decision, and the "activists" (on both sides) can do what they wish.

LOL, yes, you and I have been here before. But you know, I have respect for those who want it all in this case because they want unconditional acceptance of what they believe God gave them. I respect that a lot. The problem is that behavior from the outside looking in is a choice, not a birthright. My son was just invited to a wedding of one of his best friends who now is strait after being gay for 20 years. Lot's of questions that probably even he can't answer.

 

Barry


Edited by Eagledad, 28 December 2016 - 04:20 PM.

  • 0

"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#50 Eagledad

Eagledad

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6055 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 04:33 PM

 

@NJCubScouter, each one of my kids had at least one classmate (and one other in a grade above/below) looking toward reassignment surgery. If that is the pattern and our our tiny school district is representative, the rate is >.5%.

This is more toward my point. Whose to say this isn't a fad to gain some attention. As I said, loneliness makes people do extreme things. Once they go the surgical route, they are basically committing them to that lifestyle. Imagine some strange women walking up to tell you  they made a choice because of your acceptance of their situation and now they regret that decision. The politics in our culture doesn't allow balance in the discussions of sexual orientation. You either agree or you are a racist. We even got a taste of that tone in this discussion. To allow them in the organization would be the same as forcing the adult leaders to say they are accepting of the scout's choice.

 

Barry


Edited by Eagledad, 28 December 2016 - 04:37 PM.

  • 0

"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#51 Beavah

Beavah

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 8158 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 06:06 PM

 

@NJCubScouter, each one of my kids had at least one classmate (and one other in a grade above/below) looking toward reassignment surgery. If that is the pattern and our our tiny school district is representative, the rate is >.5%.

 

Yah, hmmm...

 

Where are yeh livin', @qwazse?

 

This strikes me as kids bein' kids, and seeking after attention in da way that happens to work for 'em.  Used to be it was Rock and Roll, or long hair, or green hair.  

 

Like @Eagledad says, I reckon they're all sharin' a drink we call Loneliness, but it's better than drinkin' alone.

 

As I understand it, da large majority of "trans" kids discover within a few years that they're just fine with their biological gender.  If that's the case, then we have to ask ourselves as a society and as scouters "What in tarnation are we doing???".   

 

Beavah


  • 0

#52 cyclops

cyclops

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 234 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 06:26 PM

Imagine some strange women walking up to tell you  they made a choice because of your acceptance of their situation and now they regret that decision. The politics in our culture doesn't allow balance in the discussions of sexual orientation. You either agree or you are a racist. We even got a taste of that tone in this discussion. To allow them in the organization would be the same as forcing the adult leaders to say they are accepting of the scout's choice.

 

Barry

Would everyone who can imagine a "strange woman" doing what Barry just suggested please raise their hand? Hello? Anyone out there?

This just confirms the 'control' aspect of this issue. Barry wants to control and argues that failure to object to this personal choice is (in his mind) a form of control. LOL.

If this decision is going to be made by someone at age 8, I'd have to defer to the family the same way I defer to them for any number of other personal decisions in their lives. A scout leader should never override the family for something like this and Barry and I will just have to disagree on this.

 

But since BSA has staked out their position by invoking the same 'birth certificate' standard as the NC bathroom bill, anyone in support of that position must also support scout membership for the male who has undergone the gender reassignment and is now, by any physical appearance, a young woman. That standard cuts both ways.

 

As for the comment about being racist? Where did THAT come from? What does transgender have to do with race? As Ross Perot says, "I'm all ears".


  • 0

#53 David CO

David CO

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 997 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 06:54 PM

Qwasze (and others), do you think this kid is just making up the idea that he is "really" a boy? Do you think he is lying?

I guess I just don't understand why anyone would make something like that up, or even mention it to anyone unless they were absolutely sure it was true. This child certainly has not made his life any easier. In at least some respects, it would have been easier to continue to live his life as a girl. It would have been easier for his parents as well.

I'm not ready to conclude that this kid is lying or making things up. And that being the case, I would not throw him out of a Cub Scout pack. To paraphrase the GSUSA policy, if he is living as a boy, and is accepted and recognized in the family, school and community as a boy, I think we can accept him as a boy as well.

 

Yes.  I think all this transgender stuff is a hoax. I don't think there is any such thing as transgender.

 

Lots of people also claim to have been abducted by aliens.  I think this is a hoax, too.  I don't think anyone has ever been abducted by aliens.

 

Why do people participate in a hoax?  I really don't know why they do it, but they do.  

 

I don't particularly care if people want to claim to be transgender, or abducted by aliens, or the grandchildren of bigfoot.  It is none of my business.

 

Just don't demand that I participate in the hoax.


Edited by David CO, 28 December 2016 - 07:41 PM.

  • 0

#54 NJCubScouter

NJCubScouter

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 6315 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:53 PM

@NJCubScouter, each one of my kids had at least one classmate (and one other in a grade above/below) looking toward reassignment surgery. If that is the pattern and our our tiny school district is representative, the rate is >.5%.

This strikes me as kids bein' kids, and seeking after attention in da way that happens to work for 'em.  Used to be it was Rock and Roll, or long hair, or green hair.


So Beavah, you're saying that kids are seeking surgery on their private parts without really needing it, just to get attention?

I guess I should be glad my generation chose "Rock and Roll" instead. But I didn't know we were listening to it just to get attention. I thought we just liked the music.

I am amazed at the level of sheer nonsense that I am reading in this thread, but I guess I shouldn't be.

Edited by NJCubScouter, 28 December 2016 - 08:54 PM.

  • 0

#55 David CO

David CO

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 997 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:59 PM

Have you never seen children disfigure themselves with tattoos and skin piercings? How about anorexia? How about cutting?

 

I have seen kids do too many strange and inexplicable things to dismiss Beavah's comments so quickly.

 

I don't know why children hurt themselves. I can't offer any explanation for the behavior.  All I know is that they do it.

 

The thing that amazes me (on this thread) is that any responsible adult would condone or encourage a child to mutilate his/her body.


Edited by David CO, 28 December 2016 - 09:16 PM.

  • 0

#56 qwazse

qwazse

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6841 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 09:22 PM

Yah, hmmm...
 
Where are yeh livin', @qwazse?
 
This strikes me as kids bein' kids, and seeking after attention in da way that happens to work for 'em.  Used to be it was Rock and Roll, or long hair, or green hair.  
 
Like @Eagledad says, I reckon they're all sharin' a drink we call Loneliness, but it's better than drinkin' alone.
 
As I understand it, da large majority of "trans" kids discover within a few years that they're just fine with their biological gender.  If that's the case, then we have to ask ourselves as a society and as scouters "What in tarnation are we doing???".   
 
Beavah

Western PA, mix rural/suburban. Nothing particularly unusual about them.
As far as getting attention, moves like this ain't getting these kids in the papers. They are pretty much ignored. Maybe that's part of the problem! We consider ourselves close to two of these kids, and couldn't tell you if isolation is a cause or a symptom.
The medical treatments are impoverishing the ones who can't be talked out of it by the time they're old enough to medicate for it.
  • 0

#57 Sentinel947

Sentinel947

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 1628 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 09:32 PM

So Beavah, you're saying that kids are seeking surgery on their private parts without really needing it, just to get attention?I guess I should be glad my generation chose "Rock and Roll" instead. But I didn't know we were listening to it just to get attention. I thought we just liked the music.I am amazed at the level of sheer nonsense that I am reading in this thread, but I guess I shouldn't be.


I'm thinking you didn't understand his point. I think I speak pretty fluent "Beavah"

Kid's at the age of 8 are still trying to figure out who they are. Kids try on a range of personalities, interests and identities as they age. Qwarse brought up sex reassignment surgery. Beavah didn't mention it one way or the other beyond quoting Qwarse.

Personal story for all, take it or leave it.
I was a pretty effeminite boy growing up. Played with dolls alot because my older sister and cousins did. If somebody had pushed strongly the idea I could have been a girl,particularly my parents, I probably would have gone along with it. If my parents oushed a surgery on me at that age, it would have been a terrible thing. I'm biologically and psycholically male. I just had some traditionally female interests as a child.

8 years old seems awfully early to put a child through gender reassignment surgery.

Just my two cents. Hopefully I won't get called too many nasty ist words.
  • 1

#58 Adamcp

Adamcp

    Member

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:21 PM

I'll only respond to that by saying that

when we have an 8 year old that is even considering "desired gender"

or really anything to do with sexual desire

well, then we've got bigger societal problems.

 

Gender identity and sexual desire (or orientation) are completely separate issues.

 

In fact, biological gender (biology and genetics), gender identity (who I am), gender expression (what I show the world), and sexual orientation (who I love) are completely separate and independent characteristics of an individual. None are exclusively binary.

 

And the development of one's gender identity is most often clearly traced back to ages much younger than eight years old.


  • 1

#59 Adamcp

Adamcp

    Member

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:37 PM

I'm thinking you didn't understand his point. I think I speak pretty fluent "Beavah"

Kid's at the age of 8 are still trying to figure out who they are. Kids try on a range of personalities, interests and identities as they age. Qwarse brought up sex reassignment surgery. Beavah didn't mention it one way or the other beyond quoting Qwarse.

Personal story for all, take it or leave it.
I was a pretty effeminite boy growing up. Played with dolls alot because my older sister and cousins did. If somebody had pushed strongly the idea I could have been a girl,particularly my parents, I probably would have gone along with it. If my parents oushed a surgery on me at that age, it would have been a terrible thing. I'm biologically and psycholically male. I just had some traditionally female interests as a child.

8 years old seems awfully early to put a child through gender reassignment surgery.

Just my two cents. Hopefully I won't get called too many nasty ist words.

 

It is not at all typical to begin hormone treatment or surgery at age eight. In cases where an individual's gender identity is considered to be clearly established, psychological stability is assessed, and the individual has been prepared for the slow steps that are taken, pediatric endocrinologists are starting to recommend acceptance of hormone treatments at earlier ages, including middle school ages. Outcomes are considered to be better when hormone treatment is started earlier with regard to psychosocial adjustment and with regard to reduction in the appearance of secondary sexual characteristics (reduced height, reduced muscle mass, reduced facial hair in individuals who identify as female, and reduced breast development and increased height and muscle mass in individuals who identify as male). Some of these hormone treatments have permanent effects, so the decision is not taken lightly, and steps taken are arduous to assure that the gender identity is indeed inconsistent with biological gender.

 

And Sentinel, effeminate behavior or interests would typically not be considered reason to question gender identity.


  • 1

#60 Adamcp

Adamcp

    Member

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 28 December 2016 - 11:23 PM

Have you never seen children disfigure themselves with tattoos and skin piercings? How about anorexia? How about cutting?

 

I have seen kids do too many strange and inexplicable things to dismiss Beavah's comments so quickly.

 

I don't know why children hurt themselves. I can't offer any explanation for the behavior.  All I know is that they do it.

 

The thing that amazes me (on this thread) is that any responsible adult would condone or encourage a child to mutilate his/her body.

 

Teens cut themselves because it regulates their emotions. How? One hypothesis suggests that the self-injury stimulates a parasympathetic nervous system response, which produces a paradoxical calming effect in the face of extreme emotions.  It is the opposite of the fight or flight response (sympathetic nervous system). The parasympathetic nervous system calms emotions, digests food, creates hormones, conserves oxygen when swimming under water (ever notice you often have a calming effect when you are diving and swimming underwater, same effect). Cutting is often believed to be "for attention", but it much less often functions to communicate anything to another person. It is most commonly hidden from family and friends, and is intensely personal. It is logical (people feel better after cutting), even if incomprehensible to non-cutters.

 

Surgery does not at all create a parasympathetic nervous system effect.

 

I would encourage all readers to consider that, if you had the chance to speak to individuals who could explain to you their experience of living with a biological gender that is discordant with the gender they experience themselves to be, you may have a different perspective on gender identity at the end of the conversation. I would never encourage anyone to mutilate their body, but yes, I do believe that gender identity issues are a real thing, and for those people it is not at all an issue of seeking attention. In fact, the main goal of these folks is to draw the least amount of attention to themselves that they can. Exceptions, sure. But still quite rare to begin with.


  • 1




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users