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Trans Scouting (Use other thread for new policy)


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#21 blw2

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 12:39 PM

An 8 year old will know a great deal about there desired gender and to say that they are a'tom boy' shows a very immature understanding. Have you ever met a trans kid or adult ? I think before you comment you should educate yourself

I was thinking about this over lunch, so I'll have to add to what was going to be my only comment to this....

At 8, a kid might know if they like pink clothes, or if they lean towards blue.   They probably know if they want sequins or lace on their clothes, or not.

But that's not really having anything sexual orientation is it?


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#22 qwazse

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 01:06 PM

I was thinking about this over lunch, so I'll have to add to what was going to be my only comment to this....

At 8, a kid might know if they like pink clothes, or if they lean towards blue.   They probably know if they want sequins or lace on their clothes, or not.

But that's not really having anything sexual orientation is it?

The truth? We don't know what leads to an identification or orientation under the premise of a permissive sexual ethic.

If your anatomy does not constrain your future sexual expression, color or pattern preferences may be a step along the cascade towards a long term (possibly life-long) identification.


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#23 Eagledad

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 01:11 PM

Tyke, Joe would be welcome here too. Looks like BSA hasn't noticed what happened in NC. If they really want to be true to some ill-defined principle, they need to require a karyotype for all members who might be disqualified because of gender.

 

ROTFLMAO!

It didn't take long for a mature dialogue of thoughts to get dragged down into the mud of judgemental condescending diatribe. 

 

Barry


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#24 NJCubScouter

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 01:17 PM

Now that society has opened up Pandora's box, it means there are no longer any rules and it's basically a free-for-all.  I think another way of describing it might be anarchy. 
 
Society is by definition a set of rules everyone agrees on the facilitate relationships between the members of that society.  Once those rules are removed, then all bets are off the table.  I know anarchy might be a bit heavy handed definition, but...
 
a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority: "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"
 
synonyms: lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, ... more
antonyms: government, order
 
With no rules/definitions/laws, there is no society.


Stosh, what "rule" is being broken when someone concludes that they are the "wrong" gender?

Aside from that, the fact is that there have been many "rules" that have been changed over the years.

This discussion sounds like a repeat of the hundreds of discussions of the "gay issue" over the years. How many times did I read statements in this forum saying that if we change this one rule, there will be no rules left. Well, the change was made and there are still rules for other things. The world did not end and the BSA is still here. We are capable of evaluating one rule at a time, and if necessary, changing it.

And that assumes that the BSA even has a policy on this. The article quoted in this thread does not convince me that there really is a policy, just a hastily thrown-together idea that if the issue comes up in a particular unit, they're going to go by the birth certificate.
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#25 NJCubScouter

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 01:24 PM

Qwasze (and others), do you think this kid is just making up the idea that he is "really" a boy? Do you think he is lying?

I guess I just don't understand why anyone would make something like that up, or even mention it to anyone unless they were absolutely sure it was true. This child certainly has not made his life any easier. In at least some respects, it would have been easier to continue to live his life as a girl. It would have been easier for his parents as well.

I'm not ready to conclude that this kid is lying or making things up. And that being the case, I would not throw him out of a Cub Scout pack. To paraphrase the GSUSA policy, if he is living as a boy, and is accepted and recognized in the family, school and community as a boy, I think we can accept him as a boy as well.

Edited by NJCubScouter, 28 December 2016 - 01:31 PM.

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#26 Eagledad

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 02:03 PM

I'm not ready to conclude that this kid is lying or making things up. And that being the case, I would not throw him out of a Cub Scout pack. To paraphrase the GSUSA policy, if he is living as a boy, and is accepted and recognized in the family, school and community as a boy, I think we can accept him as a boy as well.

From a Christian perspective, God gave us ethical and moral guidelines so we as a community would guide (guard) the youth toward a consistent behavior acceptable by God. Now, I'm not professing that you accept a Christian's guide to acceptable behavior, but I am saying that when the community or culture lack some kind of  general guideline to keep fleeting youth fed emotions in check, those youth will tend to look for a sanctuary to encourage growth of those emotions. It's one thing to stand back and let the community steer a child into the dark unknown, it is quite another to contribute to that act by accepting their present state of mind as acceptable. Love is not giving into fickle delusions of emotional acceptance, but protecting the weak from self-serving deception. 

 

Barry


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#27 cyclops

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 02:31 PM

If BSA wants to be 'true' to their so-called membership 'standards', then membership for the teenage boy who has gone the distance with complete reassignment must be supported by BSA no matter what the present physical reality is. The birth certificate will identify her as male and no matter what the physical status actually IS, BSA must live up to their stated 'standard'.

And she will also be welcome in this unit.

Technology does indeed make for interesting times. And those who are uncomfortable with it need to learn to live with it because 'it' is not going to stop. Even better, the changes brought by technology are accelerating.

My advice: enjoy the ride.

 

Edit to add: in response to the following post, this unit has some trans adults in leadership positions. They are also prominent in local community, government...and most people have no clue or else just don't worry about it. It's just not that big a deal...unless you make it one. And that's what BSA seems to be trying to do.


Edited by cyclops, 28 December 2016 - 02:48 PM.

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#28 Beavah

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 02:32 PM

An 8 year old will know a great deal about there desired gender and to say that they are a'tom boy' shows a very immature understanding. Have you ever met a trans kid or adult ? I think before you comment you should educate yourself

 

Yah, hmmm... 

 

Yah, sure, I know trans adults.  Have worked with a lot of kids over da years who struggled with various things; Mrs. Beavah has worked with a lot more and in a professional role.  

 

I reckon an 8 year old often enough has a hard time makin' an informed choice about vegetables vs. ice cream.  Can't say I'm aware of any well-raised child of 8 who is spendin' much time thinkin' of sex.   Girls have cooties!   :p   In da years from age 8-18 friends change, personalities change, desires change, behaviors change.

 

One thing that doesn't change is that kids make considerable effort to attract da attention of their parents or other folks in their lives, in whatever way seems to work.

 

Beavah


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#29 NJCubScouter

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 02:39 PM

From a Christian perspective, God gave us ethical and moral guidelines so we as a community would guide (guard) the youth toward a consistent behavior acceptable by God. Now, I'm not professing that you accept a Christian's guide to acceptable behavior, but I am saying that when the community or culture lack some kind of  general guideline to keep fleeting youth fed emotions in check, those youth will tend to look for a sanctuary to encourage growth of those emotions. It's one thing to stand back and let the community steer a child into the dark unknown, it is quite another to contribute to that act by accepting their present state of mind as acceptable. Love is not giving into fickle delusions of emotional acceptance, but protecting the weak from self-serving deception.


But how do you know it's "deception"?

I really don't think this has anything to do with religion or morals or ethics. Based on a small amount of reading I have just done, it appears that a very small number of people (about 0.3 to 0.6 percent) are certain that their gender does not match the gender that was "assigned" at birth based on their physical attributes. Isn't it possible that this very small number of people are "wired" differently than the rest of us? Who am I (or you) to say it's not possible?
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#30 cyclops

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 02:54 PM

Who am I (or you) to say it's not possible?

 

You must know already that this is all about 'control'.


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#31 Eagledad

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 02:55 PM

 

Technology does indeed make for interesting times. And those who are uncomfortable with it need to learn to live with it because 'it' is not going to stop. Even better, the changes brought by technology are accelerating.

My advice: enjoy the ride.

Ah, the Technology. Your continued condescending speak only exposes no confidence to even attempt swaying minds with logic or reason in a civil tone. Not unlike when gay activist suggested technology was on their side as well. They couldn't prove it either. And how could they, the workings of the mind are so complicated that there isn't technological method yet that shows unquestionable proof of ones natural gender.

 

Barry


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#32 Stosh

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:01 PM

I was thinking about this over lunch, so I'll have to add to what was going to be my only comment to this....

At 8, a kid might know if they like pink clothes, or if they lean towards blue.   They probably know if they want sequins or lace on their clothes, or not.

But that's not really having anything sexual orientation is it?

 

It is all social norms....  In Korea if you prefer pink, you're a boy, you need to prefer purple to be a girl.  :(  I'm thinking anyone who adopts a Koren child is going to have a difficult time picking out nursery colors unless they go with pink to cover the either/or of the problem.  :)


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#33 Eagledad

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:05 PM

But how do you know it's "deception"?

I really don't think this has anything to do with religion or morals or ethics. Based on a small amount of reading I have just done, it appears that a very small number of people (about 0.3 to 0.6 percent) are certain that their gender does not match the gender that was "assigned" at birth based on their physical attributes. Isn't it possible that this very small number of people are "wired" differently than the rest of us? Who am I (or you) to say it's not possible?

We as a culture should have a set of safe behavior guidelines to protect our youth when they are going through times of confusion. Giving acceptance to every thought of an inexperienced undeveloped immature juvenal mind should be a crime. Acceptance of allowing the child to evolve toward that emotion is the same as contributing to the choices they make in their future. I contend the BSA needs to save the volunteers and it's reputation from that contribution. I guess it comes under "Do no harm."

 

Barry


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#34 cyclops

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:29 PM

We as a culture should have a set of safe behavior guidelines to protect our youth when they are going through times of confusion.

 

It's called 'Youth Protection'.

 

Giving acceptance to every thought of an inexperienced undeveloped immature juvenal mind should be a crime.

What level of crime do you advocate? What would you call it?  What punishment?

 

Acceptance of allowing the child to evolve toward that emotion is the same as contributing to the choices they make in their future. I contend the BSA needs to save the volunteers and it's reputation from that contribution. I guess it comes under "Do no harm."

 

Role models? Hello? You can't be an active leader in a youth organization without making those contributions.


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#35 NJCubScouter

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:33 PM

We as a culture should have a set of safe behavior guidelines to protect our youth when they are going through times of confusion. Giving acceptance to every thought of an inexperienced undeveloped immature juvenal mind should be a crime. Acceptance of allowing the child to evolve toward that emotion is the same as contributing to the choices they make in their future. I contend the BSA needs to save the volunteers and it's reputation from that contribution. I guess it comes under "Do no harm."


I will readily admit that I, too, am not certain that an 8-year-old has the ability to make this determination. But what if he is? You say "Do no harm", but if what she (in this case) is really correct and you force her to pretend to be something she is not? For how long? Ten years, until she is an adult? Not to be overly dramatic, but I think there's a good chance she wouldn't live that long.

Edited by NJCubScouter, 28 December 2016 - 03:35 PM.

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#36 Eagledad

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:39 PM

It's called 'Youth Protection'.

 

What level of crime do you advocate? What would you call it?  What punishment?

 

 

Role models? Hello? You can't be an active leader in a youth organization without making those contributions.

If you are as self-righteous and judgemental of scout leader role models who don't agree with cultural inclusiveness as you are to just us in this discussion, just imagine your reaction to their natural behavior. What you suggest is forcing scouting adults to show acceptance even when they disagree. That is not role modeling, that is propagandizing.

 

Barry


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#37 NJCubScouter

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:44 PM

Role models? Hello? You can't be an active leader in a youth organization without making those contributions.


Well, I think I understand what Eagledad is saying there. If a young person is going down the "wrong path" by deciding to live life as the gender that does not match his birth certificate, by excluding that person from Scouting the leaders will not "contribute" to the young person going further down the "wrong path." But it always comes back to the assumption that the young person is going down the "wrong path." In Eagledad's view there is no room for the other possibility, which is that the path being taken by the young man in this article is, for him, the "right path". If indeed it is, it is probably still going to be a very bumpy path, and in that case we as leaders CAN make a contribution - a positive contribution, to a hopefully positive future for this young person.
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#38 cyclops

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:46 PM

If you are as self-righteous and judgemental of scout leader role models who don't agree with cultural inclusiveness as you are to just us in this discussion, just imagine your reaction to their natural behavior.

I'm not all that concerned about the 'natural behavior' of scout leaders, whatever it is you mean by 'natural behavior', as long as the YP is not violated.

 

NJ, I agree...I think....

My point is that any level of positive leadership is going to have some kind of influence on the young person. To me this issue is all about 'control' and has little to do with what might be 'best' for any particular young person.


Edited by cyclops, 28 December 2016 - 03:51 PM.

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#39 Eagledad

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:46 PM

I will readily admit that I, too, am not certain that an 8-year-old has the ability to make this determination. But what if he is? You say "Do no harm", but if what she (in this case) is really correct and you force her to pretend to be something she is not? For how long? Ten years, until she is an adult? Not to be overly dramatic, but I think there's a good chance she wouldn't live that long.

I am saying that the BSA should not take sides at all. I get the feeling you are taking my opinion as action for everyone. I'm am specifically talking about the BSA.

 

Barry


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"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#40 NJCubScouter

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:48 PM

What you suggest is forcing scouting adults to show acceptance even when they disagree.


Of course, there is always "local option."

Here we are again.
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