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Trans Scouting (Use other thread for new policy)


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#1 tyke

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 03:07 PM

Yet again the BSA come across not overly well.

http://www.usatoday....couts/95518824/

He'd be welcomed into my troop anytime
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#2 qwazse

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 03:31 PM

Yet again the BSA come across not overly well. ...

How "BSA comes across" exemplifies the rift between US "coastals" and "heartlanders".

 

In some parts, actions like this are met with resounding applause. Whereas the conciliatory actions you suggest are met with notable membership loss or lack of enthusiasm for joining. Welcome one, serve fewer.

 

Maybe with Brexit, the UK will have job openings for parents of transgendered youth who want to be part of a more inclusive scouting experience?


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#3 The Latin Scot

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 03:46 PM

I don't see how the way the BSA "comes across" matters. This organization is built on principles, and it must be afforded the unalienable right to preserve the integrity of its beliefs. To try and mandate that this private organization should bend to the whims or wishes of certain bodies of people defies the very ideals of the country to whom we profess loyalty. I don't care two figs for what the media or popular opinion say; a Scout does the right thing and sticks to his beliefs, no matter how he is treated because of it. 

 

The BSA took a stand on this issue. I would be unfit to teach the boys in my den the ideals of this program if I did not stand up for the right of this proud and honorable organization to stick to its beliefs and hold on to the principles it espouses. And so I stand by the Boy Scouts of America on this decision, but even more so, on its RIGHT to make it.


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#4 Beavah

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 03:49 PM

Yah, hmmm...

 

I reckon we all knew it was comin', eh?

 

I really feel for the child.  It's hard enough to be a kid.  Harder still to be a kid whose behavior is different.

 

When yeh add in parents and others behavin' bizarrely because of their own agendas, da anchors are gone and the child's cast adrift.  Functional child abuse, regardless of the legal definition.

 

Used to be we accepted tomboys as what they are, eh?  Fun, adventurous girls.  

 

Beavah


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#5 Stosh

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 06:38 PM

But the real question is....would this child be accepted in the GSUSA ranks?


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#6 The Latin Scot

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 08:51 PM

The organization officially would. Whether her peers would is another question.


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#7 tyke

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 01:08 AM

GSUSA do accept trans girls as all that they require is that the girl identifies as a girl.
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#8 RememberSchiff

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 07:51 AM

The organization officially would. Whether her peers would is another question.

Here is the opposite.

The BSA officially will not, yet "Not one of the kids said, 'You don’t belong here,’” Maldonado (Joe's Mom) said of the Scouts in the pack."

 

IMO, never turn away a kid who wants to be scout and NEVER prevent a unit from welcoming that kid.

 

My $0.02


Edited by RememberSchiff, 28 December 2016 - 08:18 AM.

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#9 blw2

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:22 AM

Yah, hmmm...

 

I reckon we all knew it was comin', eh?

 

I really feel for the child.  It's hard enough to be a kid.  Harder still to be a kid whose behavior is different.

 

When yeh add in parents and others behavin' bizarrely because of their own agendas, da anchors are gone and the child's cast adrift.  Functional child abuse, regardless of the legal definition.

 

Used to be we accepted tomboys as what they are, eh?  Fun, adventurous girls.  

 

Beavah

I gotta say I think @Beavah hit the mark in his comment about tomboys.

 

What in the blazes does an 8 year old know about being a trans-gender???  Really!!!???!!!

She's a tomboy, nothing wrong with that on any level..... and some adult is really screwing that kid up putting those sorts of labels and ideas into her head.

So sad.


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#10 Eagledad

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:51 AM

I gotta say I think @Beavah hit the mark in his comment about tomboys.

 

What in the blazes does an 8 year old know about being a trans-gender???  Really!!!???!!!

She's a tomboy, nothing wrong with that on any level..... and some adult is really screwing that kid up putting those sorts of labels and ideas into her head.

So sad.

I agree. This same thought wasn't received well during our gay scout discussions. I will go even farther in suggesting that accepting a young boy struggling with their sexual identity risk encouraging him to continue toward a path that will further complicate his struggle. The BSA needs to stay out of it so as not to be a contributor of a life of strife made by wrong decisions.

 

Barry


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"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#11 Tampa Turtle

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 09:12 AM

A long term colleague of mine is dealing with a similar situation, her daughter wants surgery to become a boy so she can date girls as a boy but says she is not a lesbian. At 15 she has not kissed, much less dated, a person of any sex. Mom says how do you know you want to be a boy vs a butchy lesbian? (She also laments her child would have an easier time getting into a good school as a high scoring engineer female than a male). The more I talk to my co-worker the more complicated it seems to all sorts of family and friend relationships. 

 

As for BSA this is another issue that will be a lose-lose. 


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#12 qwazse

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 09:51 AM

...

IMO, never turn away a kid who wants to be scout and NEVER prevent a unit from welcoming that kid.

 

My $0.02

That would require letting any female-by-biology join the BSA. Maybe girls who want to be boy scouts should just come out as 1% trans. I'm sure there would be some way to work that into the birth certificate.

 

We presume the unit is welcoming. But who is the unit? How did any professional get wind of this "misplaced" cub? Somebody's Akela started howling.

 

@tyke, have you been in a position of standing by a youth who other parents didn't want to be in the unit?


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#13 Eagledad

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:17 AM

A long term colleague of mine is dealing with a similar situation, her daughter wants surgery to become a boy so she can date girls as a boy but says she is not a lesbian. 

I happen to work in an environment where I get to observe some of these behaviors (lifestyles?) from day to day. From those observations and my experiences with people of all ages over my lfietime, I have concluded that loneliness is a powerful force that can drive us toward dark places cloaked in hope.

 

Barry


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"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#14 NJCubScouter

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:22 AM

I think this is a complicated issue which I will admit I do not fully understand, but there are medical and psychological factors and apparently a growing amount of literature that needs to be considered. I don't think the issue is anywhere near as simple as some here are suggesting.

We have discussed this issue a few times in the past and my observation was the the BSA did not have a policy on this subject. The article that is linked in the first post says this:
 

The Scouts declined to say whether they have a written transgender policy. Effie Delimarkos, the communications director for the Boy Scouts of America, said in a statement that the organization’s Cub Scouts programs are for boys age 7 to 10 and that "the classification on the participant’s birth certificate” would be used to “confirm legal status.” She did not provide additional details and did not specify whether the Boy Scouts have ever examined gender statuses on birth certificates.


So is there a policy? I don't know. There is a somewhat ambiguous statement from the BSA communications director. How was it formulated and approved? Were medical and psychological experts consulted? Has any information on this been distributed to the "field"? Or has the BSA just stumbled on a "policy" without adequate consideration?

I looked on the GSUSA's web site and they do have a policy, which is this:
 

Placement of transgender youth is handled on a case-by-case basis, with the welfare and best interests of the child and the members of the troop/group in question a top priority. That said, if the child is recognized by the family and school/community as a girl and lives culturally as a girl, then Girl Scouts is an organization that can serve her in a setting that is both emotionally and physically safe.


I think that seems like a reasonable policy.
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#15 tyke

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:48 AM

I gotta say I think @Beavah hit the mark in his comment about tomboys.
 
What in the blazes does an 8 year old know about being a trans-gender???  Really!!!???!!!
She's a tomboy, nothing wrong with that on any level..... and some adult is really screwing that kid up putting those sorts of labels and ideas into her head.
So sad.



An 8 year old will know a great deal about there desired gender and to say that they are a'tom boy' shows a very immature understanding. Have you ever met a trans kid or adult ? I think before you comment you should educate yourself
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#16 blw2

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 11:05 AM

I'll only respond to that by saying that

when we have an 8 year old that is even considering "desired gender"

or really anything to do with sexual desire

well, then we've got bigger societal problems.


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#17 The Latin Scot

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 11:08 AM

I am surrounded by skilled and professional psychiatrists both at work and in my family. Every one of them agrees that in most cases, it really is just a matter of them being "tomboys" or even just feminine males that our society now thinks are "trans" or whatever. I am afraid, tyke, that the more you educate yourself on this matter, as the doctors and professionals I am close to have, you will learn that usually they absolutely DO NOT know much about gender and gender roles yet. I have taught a few "trans" children in my life, and what they are going through is a confusion that can either be assisted and consoled with professional help and good parenting, or compounded by false labels and attempts to make them fit in to these new societal "norms." Gender roles are often not fully understood until late adolescence, even early adulthood. No 8-year-old really grasps the concept. And why are these parents so hasty to give the child what they want? I hate hearing how the child was "sad" when one gender but then "happy" in another. Happiness is a choice, not a condition dependent on gender. If the child is depressed at this age, their gender should not be labelled as the "problem."

 

Do not accuse others of ignorance merely because their opinions differ from yours. 


Edited by The Latin Scot, 28 December 2016 - 11:10 AM.

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#18 qwazse

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 11:11 AM

An 8 year old will know a great deal about there desired gender and to say that they are a'tom boy' shows a very immature understanding. Have you ever met a trans kid or adult ? I think before you comment you should educate yourself

Not speaking for @blw2 ... however, I've crossed paths with a wide spectrum of such adults and youth. Moreover, their numbers seem to be burgeoning. And many of them do vacillate between their biological sex and the opposite (or novel alternative). The vision of any 8 year old's counter-biological desire (or teen's "self discovery") being fixed is it's own stereotype.

 

@NJCubScouter, this field in particular is finding unknowns faster than resolutions. So, we have policy wonks choosing their experts, and the very choice is laden with bias.


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#19 cyclops

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 11:47 AM

Tyke, Joe would be welcome here too. Looks like BSA hasn't noticed what happened in NC. If they really want to be true to some ill-defined principle, they need to require a karyotype for all members who might be disqualified because of gender.

For Cubscouting in particular, it seems that being a woman is just fine after the age of 18 and in a leadership/role model capacity. But NOT if age 8? Right.

Yes, as a society and with the help of technology we're finding previously unknown situations faster than some people can accept. But BSA is in a position of resistance to one more 'local option' chink in their 'tradition'. Like I said, Joe (or someone like Joe) will be welcome here.

But I suppose BSA can stand at the bathroom door with Sheriff Arpaio and demand the long-form birth certificate...if that's really what they want.

 

Edited to add: Quote from Effie Delimarkos, the communications director for the Boy Scouts of America, "Gender identity isn’t related to sexual orientation."

ROTFLMAO!


Edited by cyclops, 28 December 2016 - 11:54 AM.

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#20 Stosh

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 12:30 PM

Now that society has opened up Pandora's box, it means there are no longer any rules and it's basically a free-for-all.  I think another way of describing it might be anarchy. 

 

Society is by definition a set of rules everyone agrees on the facilitate relationships between the members of that society.  Once those rules are removed, then all bets are off the table.  I know anarchy might be a bit heavy handed definition, but...

 

a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority: "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"

 

synonyms: lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, ... more

antonyms: government, order

 

With no rules/definitions/laws, there is no society.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)





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