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Question about the Outdoor Code!


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#21 The Latin Scot

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 07:32 PM

Well, I am still pretty new at this whole Scout Leader thing - I just hit my one year mark last month. Hopefully I can refine my process eventually so that I can see things as clearly and work the program as expertly as you all do. I still have a lot to learn.  :confused:


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There is no such word as "Webelo." 

The only proper singular of Webelos Scouts is ... WEBELOS SCOUT!  


#22 Stosh

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 10:20 PM

The ASM, TG, or Instructor should be flexible to the needs of the patrol, not implement their own agenda. Their job is to help, not hinder nor force.

 

 

Sounds a bit like you've been hanging around Stosh too much.....


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#23 fred johnson

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 05:19 AM

Does one make the Scout sign when repeating the Outdoor Code?

 

No.  I'd be uncomfortable with that.  Salute during the pledge is fine.  Scout sign during scout oath and law is okay.  But do we salute the motto?  the slogan?  If not those, then why the code?  It's a code.    

 

IMHO, this reflects the ever growing verbosity of the BSA requirements.  I may like the new categories to organize the requirements.  But the requirements need categories now because they are so much more verbose.  Just too many words.  Requirements need to be more manageable for the youth who we try to teach managing their own advancement.  IMHO, the requirements are now written for an adult to manage, not a youth.


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#24 DuctTape

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 05:23 AM

Sounds a bit like you've been hanging around Stosh too much.....


Perhaps someday we will be fortunate enough to share a campfire.
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#25 blw2

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 09:14 AM

The ASM, TG, or Instructor should be flexible to the needs of the patrol, not implement their own agenda. Their job is to help, not hinder nor force.

as it should be, true enough.....

but we all know how it is....

a person puts some time and effort into thinking about what needs to be done, about how they want to do it, come up with an order of events in their minds, maybe even put together a power point or something.... bring along some props (like maybe some rope to practice knots with)

Then it is very hard and often unlikely that they will put all that aside. 

I've seen this done more than I can count off by adults in various settings (not just scouts), and a few times with scout instructors and such too.... so it's certainly not hard to imagine


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#26 CalicoPenn

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 04:08 PM

No. I'd be uncomfortable with that. Salute during the pledge is fine. Scout sign during scout oath and law is okay. But do we salute the motto? the slogan? If not those, then why the code? It's a code. Back in the day, a Scout was indeed expected to use the Scout Sign when repeating the Scout Slogan and the Scout Motto, as well as the Outdoor Code (whis is the Scout's pledge of outdoor ethics).
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#27 blw2

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 09:17 AM

No. I'd be uncomfortable with that. Salute during the pledge is fine. Scout sign during scout oath and law is okay. But do we salute the motto? the slogan? If not those, then why the code? It's a code. Back in the day, a Scout was indeed expected to use the Scout Sign when repeating the Scout Slogan and the Scout Motto, as well as the Outdoor Code (whis is the Scout's pledge of outdoor ethics).

in my way of thinking, the sign is simply a show of respect so I'm not seeing it's use as such of a problem.

It has been a while since I've read the scout handbook, and how it defines the sign, it's purpose, and use.


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#28 The Latin Scot

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 10:33 AM

I think I am seeing some confusion between the Scout Sign and the Scout Salute

 

The Scout salute, according the the Webelos handbook, "is a form of greeting that also shows respect. Use it to salute the flag of the United States of America." The Boy Scout Handbook says essentially the same thing. Obviously, we don't use the salute when repeating the Oath or Law or whatever.

 

The Scout sign, according to the Webelos handbook, "is a universal symbol of Scouts ... The Scout sign is used to get people's attention." The Boy Scout handbook continues, "Give the Scout sign each time you say the Scout Oath and Scout Law."

 

Neither handbook says anything about making it when we say the motto, slogan, or the outdoor code. As such, I won't feel compelled to use it with the Outdoor Code now, but it is nice to know that they are still encourage to make the sign when they repeat the Oath and Law.


Edited by The Latin Scot, 29 December 2016 - 10:33 AM.

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There is no such word as "Webelo." 

The only proper singular of Webelos Scouts is ... WEBELOS SCOUT!  


#29 qwazse

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 04:57 PM

I think part of the compulsion to have the boys make the sign while reciting the code comes from external definitions:

Scout's honor
  1. 1.
    the oath taken by a Boy Scout or Girl Scout.
    • informal
      used to indicate that one has the same honorable standards associated with Scouts and so will stand by a promise or tell the truth.
 

So, folks outside of scouting use it as a means to vouchsafe a vow or testimony. That is, in reference to some previous statement, they will say "scout's honor" while making the sign.

 

For scouts themselves, such an action would be superfluous. They already promised to be trustworthy, etc ... So it is understood that they are expected to live up to any other claims, be it motto, code, or slogan.


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#30 desertrat77

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 06:00 PM

It's not something I remember, and it always seems like an extra thing....a nuisance really.  One more thing that some well intentioned adult thought it would be good to add to the growing list of check boxes of things to be memorized.

 

+1

 

I also agree with Stosh--teach it on-site.

 

The current use of the code reminds me of the Great Loyalty Oath Crusade from the novel Catch 22.   Can't eat chow, etc., unless you sign a loyalty oath.   Balk at signing it and bingo, hey mac, aren't you loyal to the USA?!   Sure, Catch 22 is fiction and the example a bit overdrawn, but I think it makes the point.

 

I recently sat on an Eagle board, my first in years.   I was surprised to see that the Outdoor Code was recited right after the oath and law.    To me, the code was an unnecessary road bump, another hassle, on the way to the task at hand--asking the scout some tough questions and hearing his answers.   His own words.  Not memorized ones.

 

Sure, the code is short and easy to memorize.   But making scouts recite it, in proper form (whatever that might be), won't make them more outdoor minded. 

 

The scout's commitment to outdoor ethics is best demonstrated in the outdoors.  


Edited by desertrat77, 29 December 2016 - 06:10 PM.

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#31 Stosh

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 06:26 PM

Our scouts always police up the area they camp in before they leave.  We camped once in a small city park that had a campground.  It was a mess when we arrived and before we left I let it be know that I won't be leaving until the whole campground is cleaned up.  We were staying for free so I felt a bit obligated.  They were invited to join me if they wished.  They did well until one of the other adults told the boys to leave the cigarette butts.

 

One scout and I spent an extra 1-1/2 hours cleaning up the butts that if the whole troop would have joined in on would have taken less than 15 minutes.  Their only concern was they would be late in getting back home. 

 

I do not have the Outdoor Code memorized and neither did that other scout.  Even if the whole troop had it memorized, I don't think it would have made one iota of difference.  It's not something one memorizes, it is something one does.

 

:)  By the way, I learned about cleaning up campsites from my Godfather.  As I mentioned in another post, he Eagled in 1936. 


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#32 desertrat77

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 08:19 PM


I do not have the Outdoor Code memorized and neither did that other scout.  Even if the whole troop had it memorized, I don't think it would have made one iota of difference.  It's not something one memorizes, it is something one does.

 

 

Stosh, kudos for the campsite clean up...that's the code in action, and far more meaningful than any ceremonial flourish.

 

Concur, reciting is not the same as walking the walk.


Edited by desertrat77, 29 December 2016 - 08:24 PM.

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#33 blw2

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 09:35 AM

....... I recently sat on an Eagle board, my first in years.   I was surprised to see that the Outdoor Code was recited right after the oath and law.    To me, the code was an unnecessary road bump, another hassle, on the way to the task at hand--asking the scout some tough questions and hearing his answers.   His own words.  Not memorized ones.......

exactly how I feel every time I sit on any BOR and the other committee folks ask it....."unnecessary road bump"


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#34 DuctTape

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 09:52 AM

Of course living the outdoor code is more important than simple recitation. The same is true for the oath and law. Scouts should be demonstrating those virtues on site as well. To dismiss the outdoor code and claim only doing it onsite is also justification for eliminating the oath and law.

The purpose of faithful recitation of these codes is a constant reaffirmation of the ideals, they are not the end of the journey but the map by which a scout follows.
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#35 Stosh

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 10:07 AM

I was going through the Scout requirements with my boys Sunday night and this issue came up on the Outdoor Code.  They were all surprised that I didn't have it memorized.  I said it wasn't necessary to have it memorized beyond getting the requirement done.  The newbies were surprised at that answer but my oldest scout said, Mr. Stosh always makes sure every bit of garbage is picked up after a campout so that it looks nice, every piece of food dumped on the ground picked up (animal safety) and the fire pit is cleaned up, (nice for the next group).  He then said it was the troop's trademark.  A clean campsite that good means a Scout was the last camper there.


Edited by Stosh, 03 January 2017 - 10:08 AM.

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Stosh

 

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#36 DuctTape

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 12:00 PM

And Stosh, replace the outdoor code with the scout law in your anecdote.
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#37 Stosh

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 12:03 PM

That works only if the boys actually know what each word means.  :)


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#38 DuctTape

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 01:48 PM

That is my point. The meaning is important, but we still expect the recitation as an affirmation of the ideals. Putting it into practice is then where the rubber meets the road. We don't just say, "well living the scout law is what's important so memorizing the 12 points is a waste if time".
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#39 Stosh

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 02:41 PM

I remember as a kid absolutely detested having to memorize the entire catechism.  Yet today, bits and pieces, if not entire sections of it float back to me constantly to direct my actions.  I have no idea the number of times the phrase: "help other people at all times." floats through my consciousness on a daily basis.


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#40 desertrat77

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 09:54 PM

A little bit of memorization goes a loooooooong way.

 

The Oath and Law are broad enough to encompass the principles that we are trying to instill in Scouting.   Including respect for the outdoors.


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