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BoR Tests ... Boy Balks

board of review testing scout skills

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#21 NJCubScouter

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 03:33 PM

My understanding is that a BoR must be unanimous in order for the scout to advance.

 

Well, unless there is a successful appeal.  Hopefully this situation can be worked out so there is a unanimous board and no need for an appeal.  There is also the possibility (from the original post) that the Scout could have his BOR in a Venture Crew, which as I understand it would require the Scout to transfer his primary registration to the Crew.  (We had a Scout who was registered in both the troop and crew, who was considering doing that before starting on his Eagle project-process, due to "issues" with one of the leaders in the troop.  He would have had all of his Eagle project signoffs, Eagle application, unit leader conference and BOR all with the leaders of the crew.  Fortunately cooler heads prevailed and the Scout never did transfer and the Eagle process was completed within the troop.  And they all lived happily ever after.  Well, at least they all tolerated the situation and got through it with nobody yelling at anybody or going to council or switching units.)


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#22 qwazse

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 04:06 PM

... the Scout could have his BOR in a Venture Crew, which as I understand it would require the Scout to transfer his primary registration to the Crew. ...

No transfer necessary.

Think about the reverse: a boy don't have to be primary in a crew to earn venturing awards.


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#23 NJCubScouter

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 05:08 PM

No transfer necessary.

Think about the reverse: a boy don't have to be primary in a crew to earn venturing awards.

 

Are you saying a young man can have his secondary registration in a crew, primary in a troop, and earn Eagle in the crew, with the crew advisor serving as unit leader and crew committee members serving on the BOR?  If so, I am not saying you are wrong.  I am saying it is contrary to what I was told the one time that this issue seemed to be coming up. (By the Scout's father, who had looked into it and was involved in both units.  Of course, he could have been misinformed. Or maybe this is just another "rule" that my council made up that is not a rule from National and does not exist elsewhere.  This would not be the only issue on which my council seems to march to the beat of its own drummer.)

 

While you may be correct, your example does not necessarily prove it.  Venturing awards can only be earned in a crew, so if the boy is secondary in a crew, it makes sense that he can still earn Venturing awards in a crew, because that is the only place he can earn them.  So long as he has earned First Class in a troop, he can earn the later Boy Scout ranks in EITHER the troop or the crew, so it would not be illogical to require him to earn those ranks in the unit where he is primary.  But like I said, I do not actually know what the rule is.  I guess I was assuming that what I was told was correct, and we all know what happens when you assume.


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#24 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 06:13 PM

Are you saying a young man can have his secondary registration in a crew, primary in a troop, and earn Eagle in the crew, with the crew advisor serving as unit leader and crew committee members serving on the BOR?  If so, I am not saying you are wrong.  I am saying it is contrary to what I was told the one time that this issue seemed to be coming up.

 

I've seen it one time. Scout was primary with a troop, secondary with the summer camp Explorer Post/Crew (this was in the 1998-99 time frame). Long story short everything was completed with the troop, but something happened, and the EBOR was done via the post/crew.

 

Also know a Scout who had his Eagle COH through the crew, and not the troop. CO gave a week's notice that they could not have the ECOH at the troop's meeting site. Summer camp crew came through, found a location and did it.


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#25 Stosh

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 07:24 PM

Any First Class scout can earn Eagle in a crew and does not need to be registered in the troop after attaining FC.

 

http://www.scouting..../Venturing.aspx


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#26 qwazse

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 08:58 PM

Yeah, NJ it's probably a convention more than a rule. Keeps HQ from slip-ups.

In fact I have only one scout who earned his eagle "with" he crew. That's in quotes because it was a slip of the registrar's mouse that caused her to click the wrong unit in the drop-down. Nobody noticed until I got a phone call (instead of the SM) to pick up the kit. By then the scout said it wasn't worth going through the paperwork correcting the NESA card, and HQ was glad for one less troop to jump through.

As a practical matter, I can't see going that route without thorough communication with the SM. (Or other advisors, if the boy belongs to multiple crews.)
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#27 NJCubScouter

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 09:48 PM

Any First Class scout can earn Eagle in a crew and does not need to be registered in the troop after attaining FC.


Right, but that's consistent with what I was told in my troop. In that case there has definitely been a transfer of "primary" registration, because there is only one registration at a time.
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#28 NJCubScouter

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 09:51 PM

...and HQ was glad for one less troop to jump through.


I see what you did there. :)
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#29 qwazse

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 09:17 AM

Follow-up: I laid out the various options to the scout in writing, and suggested he think kindly toward any adult who means him well.

 

He opted to maintain his primary membership with the troop and master and demonstrate his skills, documentation, etc ... to the board. He now has Life rank.

 

This process gave me time to explain that "Leadership Training" is a method of boy scouting, but "Leadership" is the method of venturing. (I.e.: Training's done. Time for action.) Going forward he wants to provide more leadership to the crew ... and has already started to line up events. So, I gave him rights to the mailing list and told him to get "the conversation" started.

 

Likewise regarding skills, I'm not wasting time testing, but I expect mastery. He promised he will learn "all the knots". So, last night I had him go grab the rope box, give everybody some lengths to work on, and they occupied their time going over the various schemes they learned to help them remember. (I'll add another topic about that.)

 

For their efforts, I gave them a pouch of coal (candy, from the cake-decorating shop).


Edited by qwazse, 20 December 2016 - 09:18 AM.

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#30 SSScout

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 10:14 AM

K: "Hello, Jimmy, please sit down. You know Mr. Hoskins, and Ms  Schmidt?  "

J: "Yes, Mr. Kenney. Hello..."

K: " So, It says here you are here for your Life Board of Review.  How are you doing? "

J: "Okay, I guess." 

S: " Do you know all your knots?  I always am impressed when Scouts know these Scout things. Us girls never had a chance back when I was growing up. Could you show us a , what do you call it, a Bowline?"

J:  " A Bowline?"

S: " Yes, a Bowline."

H: "Now , Betty, you know he doesn't have to show us that, but  you do know that knot, Jimmy?"

J:  "I guess so.   Here, and here, ...  here."

K:   "Ummmm.   That isn't a Bowline, is it.   When was the last time you had to tie that, Jimmy?"

J:  " I don't know. Maybe last year at the Camporee?"

K:  " Well, that might show we need more knot tying practice. What do you think, Jimmy?  By the way, what Position do you hold in the Troop?"

J:  "I'm the Cougar Patrol Leader ".

H: "Let me ask, do you teach Scouts in your Patrol, Jim?"

J:  "Yeah,  I do, but Jake is our Troop specialist in Pioneering, I guess. He always builds those tripods and things."

H:  "Well, if you are having trouble with a knot,  I bet other Scouts have the same problem, too, What do you think?"

J: " Uh-huh. "

K:  "I see what Mr. Hoskins is getting at.  These Boards of Review are a good way for us to find out how to improve the Troop. Sometimes us poor adults don't get the big picture you Patrol Leaders see.  How do you think  we can help the younger Scouts  "get it"?   Got any ideas, Jimmy?" 

 

 ***Like that , maybe?  ***


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#31 Stosh

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 10:34 AM

I see a bit of "leadership" floating in the last two posts.  @qwazse sees the boy's self improvement and organizational skills as an improvement in leadership, whereas @SSScout sees the boy's efforts as a way of improving the world around him, i.e. his patrol, etc.

 

One of the "leadership" lessons that always goes along with my teaching of scout skills is why the boys is learning the skill in the first place.  Is it for his own edification or it is so he's prepared to use that skill to help others. 

 

Our BOR's have become too focused on knowing the personal skill of the scout and not on what that skill can do for others around him in his exercising of leadership.  Because of this I see why the boys tend to end up seeing their Eagle as a personal accomplishment rather than a rank signifying a level of leadership to be employed in the world around them.


Edited by Stosh, 20 December 2016 - 10:35 AM.

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#32 fred johnson

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 12:23 PM

Follow-up: I laid out the various options to the scout in writing, and suggested he think kindly toward any adult who means him well.

 

He opted to maintain his primary membership with the troop and master and demonstrate his skills, documentation, etc ... to the board. He now has Life rank.

 

I'm glad the scout worked through the problem situation and overcame it.  It's just sad he was wronged and put in the bad situation.  Credit to him for overcoming it.  BORs are never about demonstrating skills beyond the skill to talk to adults.  

My fear is that he was wronged.  What will he do now when he is on the other end of the BOR?  Will he lead the BOR as he experienced it or as documented in policies and procedures.


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#33 Eagledad

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 01:34 PM

I'm glad the scout worked through the problem situation and overcame it.  It's just sad he was wronged and put in the bad situation.  Credit to him for overcoming it.

Credit to him for overcoming it? Hmm, he sets up a BOR to tell them they were wrong and then walks out! That's not overcoming, that's a tantrum.

 

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but knowing qwazse's scout leading skills, I feel he gets credit for direction the scout is taking. The scout obviously has a good head on his shoulders, but even the best of us need guidance when our emotions try to take control.

 

Barry


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#34 fred johnson

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 02:17 PM

Credit to him for overcoming it? Hmm, he sets up a BOR to tell them they were wrong and then walks out! That's not overcoming, that's a tantrum.

 

Your wording reads more into the situation than wasn't written.  Plus, it's hard to tell what really happened.  Even Qwazye is 3rd person away from the BOR.  

 

Now the scout may or may not have handled himself properly.  Plus, I think it takes time to learn how to behave and respond when you have been wronged.  

 

In the end, the scout rose up and decided progress was better than fighting a battle.  I just hope he treats scouts better when he's an adult.


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#35 Stosh

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 05:41 PM

If someone is in your yard, sets up a tent in your front yard and builds a fire and starts eating his supper, and you point out that he is trespassing, it doesn't mean you are having a tantrum, it means you are speaking of an infraction occurring which needs to be corrected. 

 

Maybe it could be clearer if we pointed out that if over 18, it means one is exercising due process and if under 18, it's just a tantrum.  Nope, I'm 100% with this boy and as long as he doesn't go into a road rage fit, he handled it in a mature manner. 


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#36 NJCubScouter

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 05:59 PM

Sounds to me like a good result all around.  The Scout is now looking at things in a calm, rational, productive manner.  That result was achieved not by anyone yelling or screaming or digging in their heels, but by quasze presenting the options in a calm, rational and productive manner.  You treated him like an adult, and he reacted like an adult, and maybe a BOR member or two acted more like an adult as well.  Amazing how that works.


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#37 MattR

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 09:06 PM

+1 for qwazse. He helped a young man learn from his mistakes and from the mistakes of others -- a useful life skill. End of story.


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#38 TAHAWK

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 11:43 PM

"You'll never be Eagle" sounds like a tantrum.  So who do we hold to the higher standard, a child or an "adult."

 

I sit on appeal board.  Worse happens - regularly.  But it gets fixed -- as best we can.  But we can't "unring the bell."


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#39 qwazse

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 12:36 AM

Setting the record straight ...

 

The boy bent the ears of his fellow scouts this week as well (so I learned). They were as important an influence as I was.

 

This is one BoR in five so far. I don't think the boy will consider this habit of testing as one to take up as an adult committee member. It's not in his character. I hope we soon have a little more time to reflect on it.

 

The hit-the-ground-running leadership that I'm expecting from venturers is not organizational skills. (They have a long way to go on those lines.) I'm looking for them to love one another enough to make things happen for the good of the group.

 

Think of scout skills as a form of fellowship. You tie knots with your mates, build a gadget together, prep for a campout, build the fire that others want to gather around, etc ... that generates camaraderie around which one might practice leadership. PoRs and service projects attempt to codify some of that fellowship for the sake of leadership development.

 

I'm not gonna come down so hard on adult leaders who mean well. Being blind-sided brings out some bad stuff. That's okay. I am concerned that there will be that able-bodied scout who gets tested one too many times and will grow to avoid advancement (or scouting in general) because they think the BoR is petty.


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#40 Eagledad

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 01:16 PM

"You'll never be Eagle" sounds like a tantrum.  So who do we hold to the higher standard, a child or an "adult."

 

Same standard, different approaches. Sometimes adults have a bad day or just act out of ignorance. Sometimes they let their egos too far. We approach them by pointing out what is expected compared to what just happened.

 

As a Scoutmaster, I would say my time was spent 50/50 working with adults to scouts. My goal for scouts is building character. My goal for adults is setting a good example of the law and oath in front of the scouts. I'm not trying to build character in the adults, just set guidelines of their behavior.

 

Sometimes the adults are incapable of living up to my expectations in front of the scouts, so those adults were generally moved away from the scouts. I wouldn't say I have high standards, some adults just have low habits of behavior.

 

In a situation like this, my first priority is working with the scout to see and understand his behavior toward the other people. Then I would have the discussion with the adults to discuss their expectations of procedures. 

 

Barry


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