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Can a Council take over a tree stand?


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#41 krikkitbot

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 11:30 AM

It's a large event that will take about a year of planning to pull off. In previous years, it was put on by a club outside of scouting. They decided not to do it anymore and they offered it to our troop to take it over. Now it sounds like the DE wants other troops involved in the planning. They want registration to go through the council. And, of course, have the proceeds administered and distributed by the council 

 

I'm telling our committee to just pull it out of scouting. Run it as a club event open to scouts and the club will donate the proceeds to our troop. 


Edited by krikkitbot, 05 April 2017 - 11:31 AM.

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#42 Col. Flagg

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 11:32 AM

It's a large event that will take about a year of planning to pull off. It was put on by a club outside of scouting and they offer it to our troop to take it over. Now it sounds like the DE wants other troops involved in the planning. They want registration to go through the council. And, of course, have the proceeds administered and distributed by the council 

 

I'm telling our committee to just pull it out of scouting. Run it as a club event open to scouts and the club will donate the proceeds to our troop. 

 

I'd run it as a troop and give the great big middle scout sign finger to district. How can they take it over if your troop is doing the work? They'd literally have to kick you out to do it and they'd have to justify that within the bylaws.


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#43 TAHAWK

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 01:04 PM

It's a large event that will take about a year of planning to pull off. In previous years, it was put on by a club outside of scouting. They decided not to do it anymore and they offered it to our troop to take it over. Now it sounds like the DE wants other troops involved in the planning. They want registration to go through the council. And, of course, have the proceeds administered and distributed by the council 

 

I'm telling our committee to just pull it out of scouting. Run it as a club event open to scouts and the club will donate the proceeds to our troop. 

Your strategy goes around the requirement that Council approve all independent Unit fund-raising projects


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#44 krikkitbot

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 01:40 PM

Your strategy goes around the requirement that Council approve all independent Unit fund-raising projects

 

But it is no longer a unit fundraiser. It is a group of friends who happen to love our troop and will do all of this work and give it to the scouts in the troop for their needs. 

 

That's my idea, anyway. It's either that or drop the whole thing and let the district do it on their own. 


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#45 TAHAWK

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:05 PM

So it's a good strategy.  Nothing wrong with avoiding an obstacle as opposed to plowing through it.


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#46 Col. Flagg

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:36 PM

Your strategy goes around the requirement that Council approve all independent Unit fund-raising projects

 

ROFL....I'd love to see my council attempt to *find* all unit-based fund-raising, let alone "approve" them. They couldn't even post the elimination of the tour plan, for Pete's sake!! How could they manage hundreds of fund-raising requests for all the units they support?


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#47 NJCubScouter

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:41 PM

So it's a good strategy.  Nothing wrong with avoiding an obstacle as opposed to plowing through it.

 

Well, I am not sure the obstacle has been avoided.  Is the troop "soliciting" the donation of the funds from the club?  If so, that's not permitted, right?

 

Well, unless the club is also the CO.  You have to be able to solicit funds from your own CO, right?  (Although in my troop, I think the CO has in the past solicited funds from us.  Don't ask, it's a long story.)  


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#48 David CO

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:58 PM

But it is no longer a unit fundraiser. It is a group of friends who happen to love our troop and will do all of this work and give it to the scouts in the troop for their needs. 

 

That's my idea, anyway. It's either that or drop the whole thing and let the district do it on their own. 

 

That won't work.  In fact, it will give the council a good excuse to step in and take it over. 

 

If the "group of friends" are not a non-profit organization, they will subject to all the licensing and taxes as any other business venture.  


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#49 TAHAWK

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 05:33 PM

The state and local sales tax implications of selling by a non-profit from a fixed business site are a mess - did anyone care.  Only if the $$ are big "enough " does anyone care.

 

We have non-profit unincorporated associations. All you need to dd to a bunch or friends is a constitution and bylaws.  Risky as compared to a corporation, but simple.

 

There are 501©(3) unincorporated associations - or were when last I looked.

 

Council has no authority to adjudicate ownership of property.  Would a court issue process to seize the property? On what theory? Action to replevy 1000 Christmas trees?  It can huff and puff, but imagine some DE coming to seize the cash box on his own.  :eek:  

 

What else to do if you don't want to slice up the business?  Finesse seems better.


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#50 CalicoPenn

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 09:51 AM

Some questions:

 

1)  Can you folks planning and running the event (and not as Scout Leaders or Scouts) join this club and run the event through them?  Since they've already run it for a number of years, those pesky tax issues would likely not apply if its still a Club event.  Since they've already run it a number of years, that should make planning a bit easier too.

 

2)  Will the club promise to donate all the proceeds to the Troop and can you trust them to do so?  While you can't go to the club and ask them for money for the unit, there is nothing preventing the club from donating to the unit on their own.

 

3)  Do the committee members and interested parents really have the time to take a year to plan this event without affecting the program of the Troop?

 

4)  Is the amount of proceeds expected worth the time and effort to plan and operate this event?

 

Make sure you can answer yes to all of those questions before you take it on.  If the answer is yes, then start your planning but make sure you separate it out from any work you're doing as a Troop - for instance, don't discuss plans at Troop Committee meetings - keep the planning separate.

 

As for the DE - you need to make clear that the Troop is not longer going to plan and operate this event (he doesn't need to know that you folks are doing it outside the Scouting rubric - what you folks decide to do outside Scouting is none of his business).  You also need to make clear to the DE (or better yet, the Club President needs to do this) that the Club still owns the event, they are taking a break from it, and that the Club reserves the right to put that event on in the future and the BSA is not to attempt to replicate the event without the Clubs permission, which they do not have. 


Edited by CalicoPenn, 24 April 2017 - 09:54 AM.

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#51 TAHAWK

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 10:03 AM

RE: "Can you folks planning and running the event (and not as Scout Leaders or Scouts) join this club and run the event through them?  Since they've already run it for a number of years, those pesky tax issues would likely not apply if its still a Club event."

 

Not sure what tax issues are referenced, but once upon a time I knew for sure that charities selling goods from a "fixed location" in Ohio (not, for example, Girl Scouts selling cookies door-to-door) had to collect Ohio sales tax.  That is probably still true based on recent purchases from the Volunteers of America and Good Will.


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#52 krikkitbot

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 12:25 PM

Well, the troop committee decided to call off the event. The DE was trying to take too much control (funds, troops involved) so the committee decided it wasn't worth the effort. Fortunately, we were not counting on this money so all we lost was a few months of planning. 


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#53 fred johnson

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 12:54 PM

Sad.  I'm not sure what the DE was thinking.  The only possible results were to let it happen or it would die.

 

It would never be a council fundraiser unless the council had staff to run and administer it.  Units pretty much never run council level activity.  Maybe a district level.  But districts don't do large fundraisers outside popcorn and FOS.  Futher, the CO would never want the council running an event on property they owned or rented after they offered it to the troop.  This was a lose-lose situation for the DE and he should have moved on.  


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#54 SSScout

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 10:07 AM

We have pummeled this expired equine enough.  

 

The Council can not "take over"  a unit's project.   The Council can ASK if the project could be SPONSORED by the Council, in which case, the Council can do it however the Council leadership wishes, but then  it is up to the Council to do the legwork.

Even if the Unit has not done the Fund Raising Approval Request (who does the approving in the Council office?  I wonder....),  no one can take away the event if it is lawful and not against Scout principles (no gambling, value given for the price accepted,  publicly held...) .

 

Sell them Holiday trees. Hannikah Bushes.  Christmas Greens.   Smile and wave as the Council walks by.  

!!  Maybe counsel the Council   > > >

( OO-oo ! University of Scouting Class !!)  as to How To Hold A Successful Fund Raising Holiday Greens and Tree Sale !!


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#55 JosephMD

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 11:47 AM

I've learned that there is nothing the bean counters can't mess up.

 

This sounded like a great opprotunity for your unit to earn some money so that the scouts can pay their own way.


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#56 Stosh

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 09:06 PM

Like the I&P forum, once it gets into the political realm, it's pretty much a dead horse going nowhere.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#57 MrBob

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 05:03 PM

Dead horses are the glue that keeps this forum together!


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#58 CalicoPenn

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 09:54 AM

Well, the troop committee decided to call off the event. The DE was trying to take too much control (funds, troops involved) so the committee decided it wasn't worth the effort. Fortunately, we were not counting on this money so all we lost was a few months of planning. 

 

Sorry to hear that.  The next message to the DE, with a copy to the SE and Council President is that because of his interference with the Troop, the Troop will not let him, or anyone else, give a presentation for FOS this year, or any year in the future, as long as he remains the DE.


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#59 NJCubScouter

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:42 PM

Sorry to hear that.  The next message to the DE, with a copy to the SE and Council President is that because of his interference with the Troop, the Troop will not let him, or anyone else, give a presentation for FOS this year, or any year in the future, as long as he remains the DE.

 

The only issue I have with that is that we don't really know (and I suspect that krikkitbot doesn't really know) where in the council hierarchy this decision was actually made.  All we really know is who is carrying out the decision (the DE.)  Or maybe the impetus came from district-level volunteers who complained to the DE, who was just the "front man."  Either way, even after this DE is gone, the same kinds of decisions may continue.


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#60 Col. Flagg

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:57 PM

Sorry to hear that.  The next message to the DE, with a copy to the SE and Council President is that because of his interference with the Troop, the Troop will not let him, or anyone else, give a presentation for FOS this year, or any year in the future, as long as he remains the DE.

 

We had to do this once. My only advice is:

  • Make sure your unit does not need any training or other help from district or council.
  • Plan to go to summer camp out of state for a while.

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