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SM pulls rank advancement after successful BOR


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#21 CaliGirl

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 09:21 AM

@NJCubScouter - it was for First Class.


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#22 krikkitbot

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 10:31 AM

Having just read another thread about a scout making a huge mistake while at summer camp makes me wonder what this scout did in order to be sent home from a camping trip. 

 

I would not pull the rank. The guide to advancement is pretty clear on this. Once the requirements are signed, they are done. Nothing can be added to the requirements. However, if there was some egregious transgression, I may hold off on some of the signatures for the next rank until the behavior was corrected.  


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#23 NJCubScouter

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 10:38 AM

If I were the Scout in question, I would want to go into the new troop with the First Class rank having been submitted to council, which is what he needs for the rank to be officially recognized.  The key piece of paper (either actual paper or electronically submitted) is the advancement report, which is supposed to be submitted to council by the Advancement Coordinator (or at least with his/her approval, if Internet Advancement is used and someone else actually does the submitting.)   It is supposed to be done whenever someone completes a BOR or the troop receives a completed merit badge card (or however it is done in your council.)  It is my guess, based on what you are saying, that after the BOR your SM told the Advancement Coordinator to leave your son's name off the advancement report.  This is completely improper.  If your Advancement Coordinator or Committee Chair will not help you with this, maybe the council will accept your son's signed book and do its own advancement report since your son is switching troops.  (I'm not sure if that's possible, it's just a thought.)  Otherwise he will be presenting this issue of the missing advancement report to his new troop, which is probably not the best way in the world to go into a new troop.


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#24 CaliGirl

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 10:48 AM

@krikkitbot - My son was asked his opinion on a camping related matter - that is all I can say without going into detail.  One of the ASMs could not believe he was being asked to leave over it.

 

@NJCubScouter - The last thing I want is for the new Troop to be involved.  This is absolutely not their problem. 


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#25 Stosh

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 10:55 AM

Having just read another thread about a scout making a huge mistake while at summer camp makes me wonder what this scout did in order to be sent home from a camping trip. 

 

I would not pull the rank. The guide to advancement is pretty clear on this. Once the requirements are signed, they are done. Nothing can be added to the requirements. However, if there was some egregious transgression, I may hold off on some of the signatures for the next rank until the behavior was corrected.  

 

And how is this not adding to the advancement requirements of the next rank?  :)

 

If I were the Scout in question, I would want to go into the new troop with the First Class rank having been submitted to council, which is what he needs for the rank to be officially recognized.  The key piece of paper (either actual paper or electronically submitted) is the advancement report, which is supposed to be submitted to council by the Advancement Coordinator (or at least with his/her approval, if Internet Advancement is used and someone else actually does the submitting.)   It is supposed to be done whenever someone completes a BOR or the troop receives a completed merit badge card (or however it is done in your council.)  It is my guess, based on what you are saying, that after the BOR your SM told the Advancement Coordinator to leave your son's name off the advancement report.  This is completely improper.  If your Advancement Coordinator or Committee Chair will not help you with this, maybe the council will accept your son's signed book and do its own advancement report since your son is switching troops.  (I'm not sure if that's possible, it's just a thought.)  Otherwise he will be presenting this issue of the missing advancement report to his new troop, which is probably not the best way in the world to go into a new troop.

 

In an ugly situation, there is no "best way" to going about handling it.  Simply go to the new troop, show him the boy's BSHB and have another COH and move on.  The BSHB is the only official record and if he has signatures and dates, it should be enough.  Otherwise it would do, for the new SM to just do a quick review of the requirements and if satisfied, he/she can do a quick SMC, and another BOR/COH and move on.  An explanation as to why the boy is transitioning to another troop at the FC level without any obvious non-scout reason should suffice with an explanation as to why the boy is leaving the previous troop.


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#26 qwazse

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 11:09 AM

I agree with @Stosh, the handbook says it all.

 

If there's a doubt -- sometimes there is -- you need to allow for the notion that because of the goings-on in the troop, your son may not have mastered the skills the way he should have. It's a matter of the new SM contacting the old one. We do talk to one another from time to time. It doesn't take much to tell if a boy is "all that", and a caring SM will push the paperwork through to make sure his transfer scout is recognized by council to be at the appropriate rank on the appropriate date.

 

It's sad to see an SM get all heavy-handed. It doesn't always end badly. I've seen them wise up and correct their course after a few boys transfer out.


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#27 David CO

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 11:16 AM

Having just read another thread about a scout making a huge mistake while at summer camp makes me wonder what this scout did in order to be sent home from a camping trip. 

 

I would not pull the rank. The guide to advancement is pretty clear on this. Once the requirements are signed, they are done. Nothing can be added to the requirements. However, if there was some egregious transgression, I may hold off on some of the signatures for the next rank until the behavior was corrected.  

 

I agree.  Once the requirements are signed, they are done.

 

The COH is a different matter.  If a boy were to commit a serious act of misbehavior between his BOR and COH, I might consider not having him honored at a COH.  Just quietly give him his patch.  If I was really angry, I might mail it to him, but I wouldn't withhold a rank that has already been earned.


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#28 Oldscout448

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 11:18 AM

@krikkitbot - My son was asked his opinion on a camping related matter - that is all I can say without going into detail.  One of the ASMs could not believe he was being asked to leave over it.

 

@NJCubScouter - The last thing I want is for the new Troop to be involved.  This is absolutely not their problem. 

Wait, he was asked to leave?  just the campout? or the troop?


Edited by Oldscout448, 21 November 2016 - 11:19 AM.

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#29 David CO

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 11:31 AM

Yeah, that should never happen.  Scouts cannot be "stripped" of their rank, that's not something that as far as I know is allowed in Scouting (with the possible exception of a revocation of Eagle Scout rank in some rare instances).  I would have that Scoutmaster out the door faster than he could realize.

 

I agree with you in that a scout cannot be "stripped" of his rank.

 

The COR/IH should definitely have a sit down with this Scoutmaster.  I don't agree with you, however, on removing the Scoutmaster.  None of the actions described in the OP merits that.


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#30 NJCubScouter

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 11:48 AM

In an ugly situation, there is no "best way" to going about handling it.  Simply go to the new troop, show him the boy's BSHB and have another COH and move on.  The BSHB is the only official record and if he has signatures and dates, it should be enough.  Otherwise it would do, for the new SM to just do a quick review of the requirements and if satisfied, he/she can do a quick SMC, and another BOR/COH and move on.  An explanation as to why the boy is transitioning to another troop at the FC level without any obvious non-scout reason should suffice with an explanation as to why the boy is leaving the previous troop.

 

You use the word "simply" but then describe a process that could become anything but simple, possibly involving having to re-pass requirements he has already passed.  IF (and this seems to be the route that the Scout is attempting in this case) the council would handle it, that seems preferable than going into a new troop with this unresolved issue over a rank that has been earned but no advancement report has been submitted.  One issue with that (and why it's not so simple) is that the signatures on the advancement report are theoretically supposed to be of the troop committee members who sat on the Scout's BOR.  (I say theoretically because in my troop whichever troop committee members are handy sign the advancement reports.)  The committee members in the new troop might not be comfortable doing that, and it's really not right to make the Scout go through another SMC and BOR.

 

And besides, the Scout's mother says she does not want to involve the new troop in this issue.  (I'm going to assume, for sake of argument, that this is also the opinion of the Scout, who is the person who actually should be making the decisions here.)  But if the old troop won't do what's right, and IF the council won't handle it, the new troop is the only remaining option.


Edited by NJCubScouter, 21 November 2016 - 11:49 AM.

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#31 NJCubScouter

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 12:03 PM

The COR/IH should definitely have a sit down with this Scoutmaster.  I don't agree with you, however, on removing the Scoutmaster.  None of the actions described in the OP merits that.

 

Unless there are other relevant facts that we have not been told, the SM should be given a chance to change his ways and stop rescinding rank advancements due to disciplinary infractions, which is a blatant violation of BSA policy.  There may also be other things that need to be changed, such as the disciplinary system itself, but I don't think we have been given enough information to make that call.  Once the CR/IH makes the decision as what needs to be changed, the SM has the options of (1) making the changes, (2) resigning if he's not willing to make the changes, or (3) not making the changes and not resigning, at which point removal probably would be appropriate.

 

Of course, this is all a tangent in the current thread, given that the Scout is changing troops.


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#32 TAHAWK

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 12:09 PM

I am aware of two instances locally where troops "took away" ranks post BoR.   Once Council, though the district leadership, was aware of these incidents, the units were informed that the ranks were earned for all purposes when the BoR was passed and the unit adults were counseled on BSA procedure, including the prohibition of adding to BSA advancement requirements..

 

Guide to Advancement

 

3.0.0.4 Awards and Recognitions

Awards and recognitions by definition are not part of the advancement plan. They supplement it in many ways, however, and often lead to increased retention.

 

4.2.1.3 The Scout Is Reviewed

After he has completed all requirements for a rank, the Scout meets with a board of review. For Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, and Life ranks, and Eagle Palms, members of the unit committee conduct it.

 

4.2.1.4 The Scout Is Recognized

When the board of review has approved his advancement, the Scout deserves recognition as soon as possible. This should be done at a ceremony at the next unit meeting. His achievement may be recognized again later, during a formal court of honor.


Edited by TAHAWK, 21 November 2016 - 12:57 PM.

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#33 CaliGirl

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 01:02 PM

@Oldscout448 - he was asked to leave a local campout.


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#34 krikkitbot

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 01:14 PM

And how is this not adding to the advancement requirements of the next rank?  :)

 

 

Like I said, depends on what the transgression was. It could very well fall under demonstrate scout spirit. 


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#35 Stosh

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 01:19 PM

You use the word "simply" but then describe a process that could become anything but simple, possibly involving having to re-pass requirements he has already passed.  

 

If the BSHB is signed and everything looks kosher, it's the end of the process.  The new troop simply turns in the advancement report the old troop refused to do.  Not that hard.  Rather simple.

 

Now, if the new SM questions the boy's BSHB signatures, he can do a quick review of a few items just to reassure him/herself that the signatures are legitimate.  Then turns in the advancement report and the rank is official.  It's not a complicated process by any means.

 

IF (and this seems to be the route that the Scout is attempting in this case) the council would handle it, that seems preferable than going into a new troop with this unresolved issue over a rank that has been earned but no advancement report has been submitted.  

 

The issue is not whether or not the boy earned the rank, it's the treatment the boy is receiving from the SM.  Simply moving to a new troop resolves that issue immediately.  There's nothing "preferable" to it.  The boy has lost all trust in the SM from the treatment he has received.  If the council wishes to resolve the issue, they can do it without the scout and his family's involvement.  The boy has moved on.  End of discussion.

 

One issue with that (and why it's not so simple) is that the signatures on the advancement report are theoretically supposed to be of the troop committee members who sat on the Scout's BOR.

 

Did the committee members sign off on the BOR requirement in the boy's BSHB?  If not, they did not do their job either.  The new troop can hold a BOR and get to know the new boy and his future aspirations for scouting in the new troop.  That's not all that complicated.

 

 (I say theoretically because in my troop whichever troop committee members are handy sign the advancement reports.)  The committee members in the new troop might not be comfortable doing that, and it's really not right to make the Scout go through another SMC and BOR.

 

Since when are those two issues a burden?  I do SMC's all the time with my boys for a variety of different reasons, only one of which is rank advancement.  A BOR?  So the leaders of the new troop spend a few minutes getting to know the new boy.  I don't see a downside to that at all.  It's not like either a SMC or BOR are going to stand in the way of a rank advancement.

 

And besides, the Scout's mother says she does not want to involve the new troop in this issue.  (I'm going to assume, for sake of argument, that this is also the opinion of the Scout, who is the person who actually should be making the decisions here.)  But if the old troop won't do what's right, and IF the council won't handle it, the new troop is the only remaining option.

 

Gee whiz.  A boy wants to join the troop?  I need to know why?  It doesn't make any difference.  Oh, my, the boy has all the requirements for FC, but the council has no record of it.  Just send in an advancement report and be done with it.  No one needs any long drawn out explanation for any of it.  It's just an issue of doing some paperwork.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#36 TAHAWK

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 01:56 PM

Like I said, depends on what the transgression was. It could very well fall under demonstrate scout spirit. 

 

As all things post BoR, not relevant under mandatory BSA procedures to the rank advancement approved by the BoR .

 

4.2.1.4 The Scout Is Recognized

When the board of review has approved his advancement, the Scout deserves recognition as soon as possible. This should be done at a ceremony at the next unit meeting. His achievement may be recognized again later, during a formal court of honor.


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#37 Tampa Turtle

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 02:09 PM

This is Mickey Mouse. The boy earned it, period. A little too late for poor quality control, if that is what it was. Being sent home from a campout? That makes the boy a PITA. Is this the French Foreign Legion? I am surprised he didn't rip his badges off at the campsite and make him walk home with only 1/2 a bottle of water.


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#38 GinaAZ

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 02:20 PM

Never heard of demerits or yellow cards before. I've also never heard about rank being taken away. I believe that's inappropriate. This isn't the military and we don't give scouts Article 15s and take away rank after they've earned it. We've always addressed issues verbally and then included parents as necessary. Sometimes, without using any names a situation may be brought up at the end of a meeting to everyone about appropriate behavior when multiple scouts are involved. They just strengthen the stance about scout behavior and respect towards others. A scout was sent home once for fighting a scout from another troop during summer camp. He had a repetitive history of laying his hands on other scouts in a mean way. Repetitive poor behavior that affects the safety and wellness of other scouts could result in dismissal though.

 

Our last troop awarded rank at the COH. Our current troop awards rank that day if they passed their BOR. I like that it's done immediately at the end of that scout meeting. The scout has worked so hard for that rank, I think it's great for them to be recognized immediately, rather than waiting for the next COH; whenever that is.

 

I'm sorry to hear about your experience in this troop. Like the others, I also believe troop transfer is the way to go. Even under the best circumstances, if Council resolves the issue and the troop changes their ways, you'll still likely have to face a leader who now has a bitter taste in his mouth. That might be enough to cause tension within the troop. Because your scout's book is already signed off, the next troop should be able to award him that rank.

 

I've been in a troop with a lot of drama before. Even when the troop disbanded and another was started, most of the people went with it. Nothing against them but I just didn't want to be involved in something they clearly didn't include me into from the beginning, even when I was a direct leader. After 7 years in the same pack/troop, we decided this major change was an indicator to try something completely different. Scouts will make new friends and find their place in the troop. We looooove our new troop. It's so different. It makes a big difference that committee members and leadership meet every month to discuss budget, behavior issues, attendance, outing logistics, Eagle program and OA. Quality communication makes a difference. Good luck to you and your scout!


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#39 fred johnson

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 02:52 PM

@NJCubScouter - The last thing I want is for the new Troop to be involved.  This is absolutely not their problem. 

 

Two quick comments ...

 

#1  Units get to know the leaders from other units.  As such, I wouldn't be surprised if the troop you are looking at already knows the behavior of the other troop.  IMHO, you don't need to dig up dirt or get them on your side.  Just be open and honest.  My experience is that adult leaders want to help the scouts.  

 

#2   Usually when a BOR takes place, the BOR checks that the SM signed in the scoutbook for the SMC.   Also, the BOR checks the other signatures.  Finally, the BOR signs the book.  If I was a leader in the troop your son was joining, I'd want to see the book signatures, have a quick conversation with your son and then I'd help him submit his rank advancement for the rank he already earned as documented by the signatures in his book.

 

You can also talk to your district advancement chair and/or representative.  They can help your son.


Edited by fred johnson, 21 November 2016 - 02:53 PM.

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#40 David CO

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 03:28 PM

This is Mickey Mouse. The boy earned it, period. A little too late for poor quality control, if that is what it was. Being sent home from a campout? That makes the boy a PITA. Is this the French Foreign Legion? I am surprised he didn't rip his badges off at the campsite and make him walk home with only 1/2 a bottle of water.

 

We don't know why the boy was sent home from the camp out.  

 

It is sometimes necessary to send boys home.  I wouldn't criticize or disparage a Scoutmaster for sending a boy home unless I was confident that I knew all the facts.

 

It is a serious thing to send a boy home, and it should only be done when it is absolutely necessary, but sometimes it is necessary.


Edited by David CO, 21 November 2016 - 03:41 PM.

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