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SM pulls rank advancement after successful BOR


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#1 CaliGirl

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 08:12 PM

Can a Scout Master pull a Boy Scout's rank advancement after a successful Board of Review?  Our Troop unfortunately has a demerit program in place and my son received one in between the BOR and COH.  As a result, he pulled the rank advancement, in addition to other punishment.  Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 


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#2 NJCubScouter

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 09:14 PM

No, he can't. If the Scout successfully completed the BOR and was signed off, he earned that rank, as of that day. The COH is "just" a ceremony.

Now, if you were to tell me that the "demerit" (a term the BSA does not use) was related directly to the BOR itself, I might become a little less certain of my answer. Like if it became clear that a Scout had lied about something at a BOR or... well, actually that is the only example I can think of. Otherwise, he had the BOR, he earned the rank. Depending on what the issue is, it could come up at the next BOR, but this one's over.

What "other punishment", by the way?

And also, welcome to the forum!

Edited by NJCubScouter, 20 November 2016 - 09:15 PM.

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#3 CaliGirl

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 09:24 PM

Thanks for your response, NJCubScouter.  The demerit was not at all related to the BOR, and was not for anything serious or violent.  In addition to the demerit and loss of rank, he was asked to leave a campout.  During the same time period, the SM also stripped an older boy of his rank advancement for talking during a Troop meeting.


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#4 Cubmaster Pete

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 09:36 PM

Wow. Well if were me, and this were my son, I would be looking for another unit. This type of behavior by any adult leader is ridiculous. 

 

Not knowing the details of what happened and what the situation is and just going by what you said, I would say that neither scout can be treated in this manner. I would get someone at council level involved because this is serious. Even if you don't want to stay in the unit because of it, you owe other boys in the troop to say something.

 

In this time where its sometimes tough to keep membership up, making a scout feel like he does not matter or his accomplishments are unappreciated is not ok.


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#5 CaliGirl

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 09:44 PM

@Cubmaster Pete he is in the process of changing units because of this incident and because of the way this Troop is run overall.  I have a very active Scout, who has been involved for 7+ years.  He is determined to reach Eagle, but the environment in this Troop is not healthy.  Council was notified this past week and we are waiting on resolution.  Per our initial discussion they were very supportive but you never know 'who knows who'....


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#6 Cubmaster Pete

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 09:56 PM

Yep thats very true, you don't know "who knows who". The sad thing is, its possible that nothing will change at this unit. In my 25+ years as a scout and scouter, I have seen this many, many times.  Do any other scout families in this troop think the same as you?

 

I am glad you son has set a goal to get to eagle, and changing units to get out of a toxic situation that will prevent him from getting Eagle is the best you can do. 

 

Good luck to him, and you. Thank you for being a great scout parent that is involved and concerned. 


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#7 CaliGirl

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 10:05 PM

@Cubmaster Pete We are not alone.  I know of at least six Scout families within the Unit who are very unhappy.

 

Thank you for your kind words. :) 


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#8 Cubmaster Pete

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 10:07 PM

Never a problem with moving on and giving your scouts the best program you can find. Been there, done that.


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#9 David CO

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 11:12 PM

I don't think this is so much a question of "who knows who" as it is a matter of "who submitted what" to the council.  If the rank advancement has already been submitted and it is in the database, I think you're good.

 

The scouting program does not have an official "warning" such as a demerit or a yellow card.  

 

The most serious thing you have mentioned, in my opinion, is having your son sent home from a camping trip.  The Scoutmaster does have this authority.  I've done it myself.  It is not something to take lightly.

 

I cannot offer an opinion on the appropriateness of sending your son home, since you did not share the reasons for this action.


Edited by David CO, 20 November 2016 - 11:16 PM.

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#10 CaliGirl

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 06:50 AM

@David CO The rank advancement was not submitted to the registrar and the COH has already taken place.  I had the registrar run my son's report to confirm.  It was also missing some recent training.

 

I understand that the demerit policy falls outside of the BSA program.  I also understand the need for rules, however what was outlined in the Troop Code of Conduct is not being enforced.  There has not been any positive reinforcement here - at all.

 

Not we wait.


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#11 qwazse

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 06:52 AM

There are a couple of other people who should be in his picture: the committee chairman and the charter organization representative. What they think matters a good bit.

If your child has a pattern of noncompliance, however, you and him need to take that into consideration. Other troops may not use demerits, but they might be slower to grant ranks or quicker to suspend.
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#12 krypton_son

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 07:30 AM

Thanks for your response, NJCubScouter.  The demerit was not at all related to the BOR, and was not for anything serious or violent.  In addition to the demerit and loss of rank, he was asked to leave a campout.  During the same time period, the SM also stripped an older boy of his rank advancement for talking during a Troop meeting.

 

Yeah, that should never happen.  Scouts cannot be "stripped" of their rank, that's not something that as far as I know is allowed in Scouting (with the possible exception of a revocation of Eagle Scout rank in some rare instances).  I would have that Scoutmaster out the door faster than he could realize.


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#13 CaliGirl

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 08:00 AM

@krypton_son To be fair, I think this SM is a good man who perhaps has been at it too long.  Recently an ASM criticized something to the SM and his response was "If you want my job you can have it right now."  I know how difficult it is to get and retain good volunteers.  Unfortunately there is no waiting list for SM here so we have chosen to move on.


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#14 Oldscout448

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 08:23 AM

As usual we are hearing only one side,  that said there are very few things that anger me more than a SM acting like a dictator.  Possibly because when my scoutsons #1 and #2 were in a troop which changed SMs.  we had to deal with one.   We spent about a year fighting the good fight, but ended up transferring to another troop in the end  along with most of the older scouts, As Andy from netcommish said it is very difficult to change a troop from the bottom up.

 

Re:  demerit policy    A troop can have its own rules but not  when they conflict with national bsa guildlines.  What this " scoutmaster" has done is way way out of bounds.  The term Scoutmaster is like unto the british Schoolmaster,  Is means teacher, guide, mentor.  Not "Master of the scouts" with a rod of iron.  

 

The best Scoutmasters can keep order in a meeting with just a look, the good ones with a few words to the offending scout,,the not so good ones with a loud lecture, but stripping a rank for talking in a meeting?    Words fail me.  This is not what scouting should be, and the boys are being cheated. Worse they may think that this is the way all troops are run and just quit outright.  I know I would 

 

Advice?  If you cannot get the CC and the Cor to sack this guy, take your son and as many other scouts as you can and go.  Sometimes all you can do is vote with your feet.  Even if you can get Council to force the SM to stop stripping rank, my bet is that he will just find some other way,  no PORs, no OA, KP on all campouts etc  Sad to say people like this rarely change

 

Oldscout


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#15 NJCubScouter

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 08:44 AM

CaliGirl, you say your son has been "involved for 7+ years." Is that all as a Boy Scout, or does it include time as a Cub Scout? If he has been a Boy Scout for 7+ years, he would be just a few months away from his 18th birthday, right? Was the BOR in question a BOR for Eagle?

One more question, did the chair of BOR sign off in your son's handbook at the BOR had been completed?

Edited by NJCubScouter, 21 November 2016 - 08:46 AM.

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#16 CaliGirl

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 08:55 AM

His 7+ years includes Cub Scouts.  Thankfully this was not a BOR for Eagle!  I am looking at his handbook right now and yes, it was signed off.  


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#17 T2Eagle

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 09:09 AM

My advice in situations like this is find another troop.  Actions this far outside the norm almost never change without a wholesale change in the leadership of the troop.

 

I am curious what the procedure is for regaining the rank that was stripped.  What do you have to do, earn more merit badges that somehow don't count towards the next rank?  More time in a leadership position?  Once you go this far outside the rules it's like driving on the sidealk, you just keep hitting more and more stuf because you're not on the road at all anymore.


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#18 NJCubScouter

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 09:17 AM

His 7+ years includes Cub Scouts.  Thankfully this was not a BOR for Eagle!  I am looking at his handbook right now and yes, it was signed off.


Ok, good, because otherwise the math wasn't looking very good. :) So he's around 14, give or take a year?

 

What rank was it for?  


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#19 CaliGirl

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 09:18 AM

@T2Eagle My understanding is that he had to wait until the next COH.  However, the way things have been operating in this Troop I am sure there would have been even more obstacles put in his way.  We are changing Units.  I attended a Troop Committee meeting at the new Troop and it has further highlighted to me the old Troop's dysfunction.


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#20 krypton_son

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 09:20 AM

@krypton_son To be fair, I think this SM is a good man who perhaps has been at it too long.  Recently an ASM criticized something to the SM and his response was "If you want my job you can have it right now."  I know how difficult it is to get and retain good volunteers.  Unfortunately there is no waiting list for SM here so we have chosen to move on.

 

You're 100% right CaliGirl, it's very stressful, and it can be a very demanding and thankless position.  Having said that though, abusing that position is a big deal, especially when it can affect the boys in such negative ways.


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