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#21 Oldscout448

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 01:40 PM

May one ask what your Chartered Organizations policies are here?   In what ways do they differ from BSAs?   


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#22 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 01:48 PM

The Chartered Organization has the right to set guidelines and standards for selecting the unit's volunteer leaders.  The CO owns the unit.

 

I don't restrict the selection of my unit's volunteer leaders to people who have children in the unit.  We have several great leaders whose children have aged-out, and others who have never had children in the unit.

 

That said, I whole heartedly support the right of other Chartered Organizations to establish that rule for their units.

 

The council has a different set of standards for council volunteers, some of which would conflict with my Chartered Organizations policies and values.  It is entirely possible that the council might appoint a UC who would be totally unacceptable as a unit leader in my troop (for reasons other than not having children in the troop).

 

I totally reject the argument that we should have UC's in order to allow applicant volunteers, who would otherwise be ineligible to participate in our unit in a leadership position, to bypass our Chartered Organizations policies and standards and participate in our unit. I totally reject it.

 

Again, I think you do not understand the concept of a Unit Commissioner. They are support personnel, not members of your unit(s). Their job is to help, coach, etc the units' leaders when they need help. They also are responsible for visiting units to make sure everything is OK, and try to forestall problems before they explode. 

 

if I remember correctly, you are a COR. You do realize that you are a member of both the district and council committees? You do realize that if you do not like the UC(s) assigned to your unitsyou can request a new one?


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#23 David CO

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 02:16 PM

Again, I think you do not understand the concept of a Unit Commissioner. They are support personnel, not members of your unit(s). Their job is to help, coach, etc the units' leaders when they need help. They also are responsible for visiting units to make sure everything is OK, and try to forestall problems before they explode. 

 

if I remember correctly, you are a COR. You do realize that you are a member of both the district and council committees? You do realize that if you do not like the UC(s) assigned to your unitsyou can request a new one?

 

I have never been a COR.  The only two adult positions I have ever held in scouting are SM and IH.

 

I am aware of the fact that my COR may sit in district and council committees.  He and I both agree that the system is rigged (at council) and it would be a futile waste of time for him to participate.  

 

My COR does occasionally appear at council to vote against their slate of candidates or register a protest vote on a particular matter that catches his attention.  That's up to him.

 

If the council were to surprisingly decide to heed our wishes, we would ask that they not appoint a UC to our unit.  I very much doubt that will happen.


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#24 Stosh

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 02:41 PM

The council does not assign UC's, the District Commissioner does.  If a unit does not want a UC, they can always say so and the UC will be placed with a unit that would like to have access to the UC's experience.  One of the primary reasons why units do not know who their UC is, is because there seems to always be a shortage of volunteers for that position and the resources of the UC's the District  does have go toward units having problems.

 

We have a few units in the Council that tend to go their own way with the BSA program.  They really don't want BSA to come in a see what they are up to and the UC is the standard link between District and unit.  With no UC, then there is no "spying" going on.  But if the unit ever gets into difficulty for whatever reason, they tend to contact the DE to come in and solve their problem.  Basically that's not the DE's job, it's the job of the UC.  Of course, at no fault of their own, the UC isn't going to know what's going on with the problem until it has escalated beyond the ability of the unit to handle it.  Even with all my experience in psychology, counseling, youth work, small group dynamics, business management/leadership, I wouldn't touch this issue with a 10' pole. 

 

Why?  By the time it has gotten to this point, it is basically pretty much unsolvable so it's going to be a no-win situation anyway.  That means my psychology training, counseling, youth work, etc. are all telling me that staying home and watching TV or playing on the computer is going to be far more productive than walking blindly into a hornet's nest.  I would politely decline getting involved with that situation.

 

However, if I was a UC with constant contact with the unit on a regular basis and the unit leadership kept me up-to-date on the welfare of the unit, if something hiccups, I will know what went into leading up to the issue and would have had an opportunity to nip it in the bud early enough to keep it off of everyone's radar in the first place.

 

What it all boils down to is how the unit wishes to handle it.....and how much the UC is willing to get involved in the escalated levels of conflict when things eventually boil over.


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#25 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 05:03 PM

I have never been a COR.  The only two adult positions I have ever held in scouting are SM and IH.

 

I am aware of the fact that my COR may sit in district and council committees.  He and I both agree that the system is rigged (at council) and it would be a futile waste of time for him to participate.  

 

My COR does occasionally appear at council to vote against their slate of candidates or register a protest vote on a particular matter that catches his attention.  That's up to him.

 

If the council were to surprisingly decide to heed our wishes, we would ask that they not appoint a UC to our unit.  I very much doubt that will happen.

 

Sorry you feel that way. Question I have now is, why do you use Scouting? Why not use another program or create your own?


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#26 David CO

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 06:23 PM

We do have another program, Outdoor Education.  It's great!  I absolutely love going on the OE activities.  They're a blast.  OE is twice the fun and half the aggrivation.

 

Even so, some of our parents still want to have a scout program.  


Edited by David CO, 09 November 2016 - 06:27 PM.

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#27 TAHAWK

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 07:16 PM

But no one argued (yet) that bypassing your CO's standards is a reason to ("in order to allow") have your unit or any other units accept UCs that violate your CO's standards.  I am sure our diocese would accept no rationale for bypassing its enhanced YP standards for adults in any of its youth programs.

 

Have you actually encountered the situation that you totally reject?

 

The statement is that it gives volunteer work to those seeking it and willing to do that work.  I am unaware of any  DC trying to force a UC on an unwilling unit.  DCs are too short of Scouters willing to do the work to waste them on where they are unwanted. 

 

I'm with Stosh.  The quality of UCs varies --  as does the quality of all volunteers.


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#28 David CO

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 08:23 PM

TAHAWK,

 

JasonG172 did argue that, in post #18, regarding units who would not accept a unit leader who doesn't have a child in the unit.  I was responding to his argument.

 

No, I have never encountered that situation.  I had never even thought of it until I read his post.  Yes, I do totally reject that argument.  It has very serious implications that could go far beyond the discussion of childless volunteers or older volunteers who want to remain active in scouting.

 

Acceptance or denial of an application to become an adult unit leader in my troop is subject to the needs of the unit, not the needs of the adult volunteer. 

 

I feel the same way about someone who wants to be a UC for my unit.  


Edited by David CO, 09 November 2016 - 08:37 PM.

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#29 TAHAWK

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 08:44 PM

TAHAWK,

 

JasonG172 did argue that, in post #18, regarding units who would not accept a unit leader who doesn't have a child in the unit.  I was responding to his argument.[/quote]

 

 

 

He said: "In most cases some UC, ADC and DC are 'old Scouters' looking to stay active in scouting in some shape or form and Commissioner Services fits the bill. "  

 

I do not presume to speak for anyone else, but that does not seem to argue that the needs of youth be subordinated to the desire of veteran volunteers to stay active.  He seems to be addressing merely their motivation and the reality than many find opportunities to serve Scouting in Commissioner Service. Looking to serve does not, to me, amount to putting the youth, unit, of CO lower on the priority list than the needs of the volunteer - any volunteer.

 

I can conceive of a situation where both the desire of the Scouter and the needs of the youth, unit, and CO are both served.


Edited by TAHAWK, 09 November 2016 - 08:44 PM.

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#30 David CO

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 08:44 PM

May one ask what your Chartered Organizations policies are here?   In what ways do they differ from BSAs?   

 

No, I don't want to force the thread into Issues and Politics.  I would rather speak in general terms.


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#31 David CO

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 09:40 PM

 

He said: "In most cases some UC, ADC and DC are 'old Scouters' looking to stay active in scouting in some shape or form and Commissioner Services fits the bill. "  

 

I do not presume to speak for anyone else, but that does not seem to argue that the needs of youth be subordinated to the desire of veteran volunteers to stay active.  He seems to be addressing merely their motivation and the reality than many find opportunities to serve Scouting in Commissioner Service. Looking to serve does not, to me, amount to putting the youth, unit, of CO lower on the priority list than the needs of the volunteer - any volunteer.

 

I can conceive of a situation where both the desire of the Scouter and the needs of the youth, unit, and CO are both served.

 

 

I can't think of any situation in which the needs of my unit would be better served by having a volunteer register as a council or district leader rather than a unit leader. 


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#32 TAHAWK

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 10:16 PM

Then speak generally.


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#33 qwazse

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 06:26 AM

Then speak generally.

Good point.
Generally, in units with a sense of rugged individualism, I've seen UC can be a problematic position, followed by COR.
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#34 Stosh

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 08:07 AM

It is a known fact that certain organizations want to be associated with the BSA brand, but not have to adhere to the franchise expectations.  This isn't just with BSA I have seen it with other organizations as well.


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#35 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 08:16 AM

Good point.
Generally, in units with a sense of rugged individualism, I've seen UC can be a problematic position, followed by COR.

 

In my experience units without a UC, even a lousy one who is only seen at recharter time, do somewhat better than the "rugged individual" units.  The units I've seen while appearing OK, have problems, usually major problems. 

 

I've mentioned the troop that doesn't use the patrol method, outdoor method, etc. that frustrated 3 UCs (one UC a member of the CO, one UC a den leader with the CO's pack, and one UC who was a MC of the troop prior to leaving the area to take care of a dying mother and coming back to the area) and ran off a 4th UC.

 

Another example would be a pack that created a "Barney Den" for kindergartners that was actually doing advancement work at that level.

 

A third example would be the pack that rushed their Cubs through the program, not following rules, and tried to get 4th grade 9 year olds their Arrow of Light so they could be Boy Scouts.

 

A fourth example would be the troop that did a lot of HA, and was very active. From all outside appearances the troop was top notch. However, when the troop folded to join Trails' Life, issues began to emerge. Advancement was a problem. They discouraged rapid advancement, making Scouts wait to take certain MBs and have BORs. And they ignored changes in advancement requirements allowing Scouts to use old requirements and ignore new ones.  While you would think this would appear at the EBORs that their Scouts had, it wasn't caught until after the folding. Several of their Scouts transferred to another troop. When one was going for his Life BOR, it was discovered that the old troop ignored some of the new Life requirements. Not only did it cause a delay in earning Life, the Scout had to appeal to National to have an EBOR since he would not have the "6 months as a Life Scout...." due to the original troop. Thankfully National granted the appeal, and the Scout stayed active a year after turning 18, when he went to college. Still, he is a "unit college scouter reserve" and helps out as he can.

 

 

Regarding CORs, unless they are duel enrolled as CC/COR, they are usually on paper only and not active. Pack's COR is a challenge to find and get paperwork signed. I'm still waiting for them to sign off on my wife's paperwork, and it was submitted 2 times now! And as I mentioned, I know of only 1 COR to ever attend district/council level meetings.


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#36 David CO

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 09:23 AM

My COR is very efficient.  He handles paperwork promptly, usually within a couple of days.  I meet with him at least once a week. 

 

COR is not as active in a unit as a SM or CC, but he/she does have a critical and necessary role to play.  I think it would be very foolish for a Chartered Organization to appoint a "paper" COR.

 

As you know, few COR's regularly attend council and district meetings.  I think this reflects the deteriorating relationship between BSA and the Chartered Organizations, not the activity level of the COR.


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#37 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 09:38 AM

As you know, few COR's regularly attend council and district meetings.  I think this reflects the deteriorating relationship between BSA and the Chartered Organizations, not the activity level of the COR.

 

Know it all to well that few, if any CORs attend district and council meetings. But I do not think it is because of the deteriorating relationship.  They either A) Do not know they are part of those committees, or B) Do not care.

 

True story, when I was a DE I actually went to every single IH per the charter agreement. Not only to introduce myself, but also to inform the His that their CORs are part of the district and council committees, representing the CO and its units. No COR ever showed up. Tried to get the Pack's COR, who obviously is the problem troop above's COR, to get involved when he showed up on a troop camping trip ( this was before the change in troop leadership that lead to changes I described). He never showed up to another Scouting event ever again.


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#38 David CO

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 10:49 AM

Know it all to well that few, if any CORs attend district and council meetings. But I do not think it is because of the deteriorating relationship.  They either A) Do not know they are part of those committees, or B) Do not care.

 

True story, when I was a DE I actually went to every single IH per the charter agreement. Not only to introduce myself, but also to inform the His that their CORs are part of the district and council committees, representing the CO and its units. No COR ever showed up. Tried to get the Pack's COR, who obviously is the problem troop above's COR, to get involved when he showed up on a troop camping trip ( this was before the change in troop leadership that lead to changes I described). He never showed up to another Scouting event ever again.

 

 

We seem to have observed the same things, but we have reached very different conclusions.  I don't believe the Chartered Organization's people are nearly so ignorant and apathetic as you guys from council like to claim we are.  

 

We agree that few COR's attend council and district meetings.  Should that fact reflect badly on the COR's, or should it reflect badly on the council?

 

I think it reflects badly on the council.


Edited by David CO, 10 November 2016 - 10:54 AM.

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#39 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 11:14 AM

As someone who has practically begged CORs to get active, I respectfully disagree. I think it reflects on the CORs.  Especially when I had units complaining about lack of representation on the district and council level.


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#40 David CO

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 12:54 PM

COR's know that their so-called representation on the council and district committees is nothing but a sham.  All the important decisions are made elsewhere.  

 

The execs and the big buck donors control the council.  The system is rigged.

 

Perhaps someday the populism that is taking root throughout the country, and elsewhere, will sweep over BSA and return control to the Chartered Organizations, or to the rank and file.  I would welcome the change, but I don't expect to see it in my lifetime.


Edited by David CO, 10 November 2016 - 01:04 PM.

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