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Dish-washing error corrected in Handbook


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#1 TAHAWK

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 06:50 PM

Without much fanfare, BSA finally corrected the "official" dish-washing method about five years ago to three steps: 1) warm wash; 2) warm rinse; 3) tepid sanitizing rinse.  That was about twenty-five years  after the 1985 Jambo faced being shut down by the Virginia Health Department for lack of that final step.  This method, required in most states for cooking for more than a few people, appeared in the 12th Ed. Handbook.  The chlorine in the final rinse, with minimal contact with detergent and food particles, will kill all but a few parasites.

 

 

With no fanfare, the 13th Ed. Handbook came out with three steps: 1) warm rinse; 2) tepid rinse with sanitizing chemicals; 3) hot rinse.  The illustrations show the dishes being lowered by bare hand into the hot water.  For water to be hot enough to sanitize dishes by immersion it needs to be be 171 degrees F - capable of causing burns in about .35 second.

http://www.foodsafet...n11Cleaning.pdf

http://www.accurateb...ding_graph.html

 

The chlorine in the initial rinse, having to deal with detergent residue and food particles, adds nothing one can rely upon..

 

 

Now the good news.  The Handbook was been amended to return to the the three steps of the 12th Edition Handbook.  Someone deserves praise for the decision to correct the error in the initial printings of the Handbook.  Now, will the correction be pointed out officially?  That would be value-based behavior as this is a health and safety issue.

 

 

 


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#2 SSScout

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 08:30 PM

Usta be : Hot soapy water scrub, rinse clean, lower into boiling water in a mesh bag, hang to air dry.   If it was really boiling water, the dishes dried very fast....


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#3 TAHAWK

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 08:47 PM

Sometime when I was out colleging and family-starting (pre-1979), the boiling water went away.  I am told there had been incidents of poached foot-inna-boot. :eek: 

 

Instead, I found the useless two-container method in the Handbook (wash, warm rinse with chlorine [passing into the air instead of staying in solution]).  My first RT featured our eventual DC explaining that it did not work (PhD Public Health; PhD Microbiology).  

 

Yet it stayed in place until the 102nd anniversary of U.S. Scouting in 2010.  Musta' been something special about 102 years,  :)


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#4 Stosh

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 09:42 PM

:)  I teach my boys to do it by the book.  It doesn't make any difference as long as it is by the book.

 

Me, on the other hand, wash dishes in the camp just like I wash them at home.  After 60+ years of washing dishes I haven't poisoned myself yet.

 

2 bins, hot water wash, hot water rinse with a bit of bleach or vinegar, set to dry.  I also don't have food particles from a half dozen different plates to contend with either, just my own dishes.  I cook alone, I clean alone.  If I get invited to a meal, I still go back to my site and do my own dishes.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#5 TAHAWK

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 11:11 PM

You do get that, according the B.S.A., the "book" was incorrect, causing B.S.A. to change the "book" a couple of months after it first came out?

 

If everyone cleaned their own dishes and utensils, we would have little concern about disease spreading by dish-washing as they did at the 1985 Jamboree.  Nor would state health laws apply.

 

"The book" used to say that a tripod lashing was made with two poles running one way and one pole the opposite way.  After lashing and frapping, you "spread the poles" to create the tripod.  See illustration here:  https://www.google.c...%2Cjn_t9TLoxtCW

 

My God-like 17-year-old Eagle SPL saw me following those instructions and, when I "pled" the "book," told me that words in a book did not excuse stupidity.  To "spread" the poles, they needed to start together.

 

Those incorrect instructions appeared in BSA literature on and off for over sixty years as some clueless employee found them and republished them - sort a noxious weed of error..  Gone now, thank the Spirit of Pioneering, but always wrong.


Edited by TAHAWK, 12 September 2016 - 11:11 PM.

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#6 CalicoPenn

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 08:00 AM

Your 17-year old son would hate my rendezvous tripod - no wrapping and frapping for me - I set up the tripod poles (fallen branches from local trees - you would collect them and break them up for kindling), then tie them together.  I had a Boy Scout call me out on it once - my answer was that I doubted that a mountain man was going to take the time to do all that wrapping and frapping for something that he's going to use for less than a day.


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#7 DuctTape

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 09:08 AM

Yeah.Patrol cooking is cooking for just a few people. Backcountry, primitive camping would not follow procedures designed for commercial kitchens. Wipe out pot with moss, put moss in fire. Boil some water in pot, extinguish fire with water. No soap, no chemicals, yet clean.
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#8 DuctTape

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 09:11 AM

There are a multitude of lashing methods, even when one needs it for greater strength. Look up japanese lashing methods. They are quite different from traditional scout methods, but just as effective. The scout knots and lashings arent meant to be the only way, but just the beginning.
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#9 ianwilkins

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 09:29 AM

On a static camp, or dump camp, here in the UK, we (though I'm not speaking for the whole of the UK, actually, I am pretty sure there is no mandated right way to wash up) use the bin and three bowl method.

 

A bin at one end of the table

Then the three bowls...

1. hand hot water with washing up liquid

2. hand hot water with washing up liquid

3. hand water with no washing up liquid

 

Scrape as much food and sauce of the plate as possible into the bin

Wash off all remaining food in the first bowl with a brush/sponge/cloth

Clean it in the second bowl

Rinse it in the third bowl

Put it on the drying rack

 

When the middle bowl starts to get dirty from the food that didn't quite get washed off in the first bowl, or the first bowl is looking decidedly manky, get rid, get another bowl of clean hand hot water, and that becomes the new third bowl, third bowl becomes the second bowl, adding some washing up liquid, and the second bowl becomes the first.

 

Stuff on the drying rack either gets dried with a tea towel, or left to air dry, depending on numbers camping and number of drying racks.

 

That's because we happen to mass cater for everyone on camp.

 

If we were doing a patrol camp, we'd do it like you'd do at home, maybe two bowls, or probably just one, and left on the rack to dry. Or I know some specify each person has a "dilly bag" that has plate, bowl, mug, and cutlery in, and stuff goes back in there once dry.

 

Not killed anyone yet.


Edited by ianwilkins, 13 September 2016 - 09:32 AM.

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#10 Eagledad

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 10:41 AM

Glad they finally made the change. I'm a big "use the handbook" Scoutmaster because it keeps the adults out of the Patrol Method. I was always annoyed with this part of the book because it required a caveat instruction for proper use.

Barry
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"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#11 fred johnson

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 10:52 AM

Glad they finally made the change. I'm a big "use the handbook" Scoutmaster because it keeps the adults out of the Patrol Method. I was always annoyed with this part of the book because it required a caveat instruction for proper use.

Barry

 

I used to be a big "use the handbook" advocate, but recent handbooks seem more like coffee table books than reference materials.  My son's 2005 book was good as an educational tool.


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#12 Eagledad

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 11:36 AM

I used to be a big "use the handbook" advocate, but recent handbooks seem more like coffee table books than reference materials.  My son's 2005 book was good as an educational tool.


Sorry to here that, the 2005 was the last one I had.

Barry
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#13 Beavah

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 01:17 PM

 

If everyone cleaned their own dishes and utensils, we would have little concern about disease spreading by dish-washing as they did at the 1985 Jamboree.  Nor would state health laws apply.

 

 

 

Yah, hmmm...

 

I'm wonderin' why yeh think state health regulations apply to unit campin' at all, @TAHAWK.   Large events requirin' special permitting on public land, like a jamboree... perhaps.    Commercial sale of food as part of fundraisin', like running a food booth at a county fair, sure.

 

Otherwise not really.

 

Da three-tub method for heavyweight car campin' to my mind is usually associated with Troop Method camping.  For Patrol Method where yeh have 4-8 kids, other options seem more appropriate and consistent with LNT.

 

Beavah


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#14 TAHAWK

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 02:29 PM

Perhaps I think this because Ohio law, which is not atypical, regards cooking for thirteen or more persons in return for pay or a "donation" to be a "food service operation" subject to the State Health  Code.  Ohio Rev. Code Sec.3717.42 (B) and 3717.01(F)  You are free to compare the law in beaver country.  Things may be different there- or more strict.

 

That body of statutes and regulations provides, inter alia:  

"Sanitization" means the application of cumulative heat or chemicals on cleaned food-contact surfaces that, when evaluated for efficacy, is sufficient to yield a reduction of five logs, which is equal to a 99.999 per cent reduction, of representative disease microorganisms of public health importance.  Ohio Rev. Code Sec. 3717-1-01(B)(103).

 

 

The National Food Service Management Institute explains to food service operators that: "Dishwashing is a three-step process: wash, rinse, and sanitize. Sanitizing can be done with the use of either hot water at the proper temperature or chemical sanitizers at the appropriate concentrations. If sanitizing is not done appropriately, cross contamination can occur."

 

I fell into the trap of thinking of a "unit" as thirteen or more beavers.  My mistake.

 

If the food is free, you are also free to ignore generally-accepted health practices for group dish-washing in favor of other practices..

 

At Philmont and when otherwise backpacking we used the two-pot/one-tub method.  Pot 1, the large cooking pot (usually has been used to cook) to collect the soapy water rinsed off the suspended dishes using water dipped with a clean Sierra Cup from the second, heating pot.after application of soap and brush to the dish being processed.  The only item "soaked" in wash water is Pot 1.  I would argue that this method avoids cross-contamination since items are cleaned separately from wash through rinse and only come together in the 8 oz sanitizing rinse tub. So the only "heavy" gear added to the cook pots is an 8 Oz plastic tub and a dish brush (unk wt.)..

 

And the point being danced around is that B.S.A. erred as explained (171 degree water in a final rinse works - at the risk of scalding Scouts.  Chlorine in an initial rinse does not work dependably and adds nothing to sanitizing.).  That error in the early copies of the 13th Ed and has been recognized and corrected by B.S.A.  

 

B.S.A might have explained all the other ways one might safely wash dishes, but has not done so for reasons it doubtless feels are good and sufficient.  


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#15 qwazse

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 05:51 PM

Durn it. Y'all just reminded me that I needed to empty the dishwasher before Mrs. Q gets home.
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#16 TAHAWK

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 06:19 PM

You too !   :D


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#17 KenD500

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 10:49 AM

For those really interested in this topic, here's a peer reviewed paper that evaluated the 3 tub method.

Attached Files


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#18 CalicoPenn

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 11:39 AM

So according to that study, it's a better process to switch 2 and 3 around so that the sanitizing solution is used before the final rinse.    This not only gets the dishes cleaner but also rinses off the sanitizer


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#19 KenD500

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 12:16 PM

So according to that study, it's a better process to switch 2 and 3 around so that the sanitizing solution is used before the final rinse.    This not only gets the dishes cleaner but also rinses off the sanitizer

That's the way I understand it.


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#20 TAHAWK

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 05:44 PM

We ought to be open to new science.

 

The gent who advocated for the former and current B.S.A. method is a PhD in microbiology and also in Public Health.  He ended up working for the WHO in Switzerland until he retired.  I'll ask him what he thinks.  He's back in the U.S.A..

 

The sanitizer BSA suggests is a gas.  B.S.A. is calling for a "few drops" of "bleach" in what looks to be an 80% full 8-quart pot.  This method leaves no chance to leave behind any significant residue of the chlorine gas.  It is also pretty imprecise.  Detergent residue has been an issue raised previously.

 

Clorox, the company, suggests 2 teasp/gallon or 2.6%

 

The MB author of the cited study suggests 4% chlorine bleach uin her summary chart but used other sanitizers besides chlorine.  When she speaks of sanitizer residue she does not distinguish or specify that chlorine bleach left residue even at the greatly elevated levels that she used.

 

Assuming that her paper was peer-reviewed, what did the peers say?

 

Has B.S.A. reviewed her paper?


Edited by TAHAWK, 14 September 2016 - 05:52 PM.

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