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Guide to Safe Scouting

health and safety safety gtss

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#21 fred johnson

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Posted 10 August 2016 - 10:18 AM

Yah, but if we ban everything that isn't safe in da hands of idiots, what's left?

 

Besides, when yeh make things idiot-proof, Nature just develops a better idiot.

 

Beavah

 

Yeah, but I've camped at scout camps.  Safety of guest scouts is emphasized.  Safety of staffers is often ignored with a wink and a grin ... in the name of promoting fun for the campers.  Staffers standing on unstable benches and tables causing falls from significant height.  Clearing out brush causing many staffers to catch lymes disease.  Staffers generally doing stupid stuff to be the cool staffer. 

 

"Nature just developers a better idiot." ... and then they come back the next year as the favorite camp staff.


Edited by fred johnson, 10 August 2016 - 10:19 AM.

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#22 TAHAWK

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Posted 10 August 2016 - 10:25 AM



I thought

The Complete Wilderness Training Manual, 2d. ed. rev. (DK Publishing, 2007)   suggested a kukri?

 

 

I so want a BK-21!

Absolutely.  Khukuri (three syllables): the short sword carried by the Ghurkas (various spellings, but not Bhurka as Word suggests).  So it did not violate the G2SS advice against "large sheath knives, being a short sword carried in a leather-covered wood scabbard.   :D  

Khukuri%20M43_zps3pv5kows.png

Ghurka%20with%20khukuri%202_zpsl3my8rga.


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#23 Stosh

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Posted 10 August 2016 - 11:01 AM

In the reenacting world there are a few written rules and a whole lot of unwritten rules.  Big bore artillery have written rules as do veterinarian health certification for horses and mules.  Infantry has a ton of unwritten rules.  Those that can't follow the unwritten rules are asked never to come back to the event ever again.  

 

Safety was of prime importance and idiots were weeded out immediately.

 

National reenactment doing Gettysburg in Pennsylvania.  I was captain of the company of Venturing Crew reenactors.  We moved forward along with thousands of others in a single battleline.  I was struck in the chest with a Wonder Wad from a confederate pistol.  Wonder Wads are outlawed in reenactIng.  I ordered my company to stop, do an about face and kneel.  The Major came riding up and yelled why I had left a hole in the line. I called out Wonder Wad and he said, As you were captain, and rode off.  No questions asked, if a confederate unit was loading with wonder wads, no infantry was to move forward on them.  I was lucky to get hit in heavy wool clothing because it would have been a different story had it be in the face.

 

The effect attempted for the paying public was disrupted because of a few idiots in the ranks.  The spot on the line was identified and the confederate command notified.  I'm sure the unit was packed up and out of there by night fall.

 

There was no written policy anywhere about loading with Wonder Wads, but everyone knew how to enforce any infraction of the practice.  BSA could be doing the same thing.  Instead of drawing attention to sheath knives being banned, maybe a better approach would be to deal more severely with ALL knife safety issues, not just the sheath knives.  I wore my knife and drew it only when needed.  Maybe that's why no one had a problem with it.


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Stosh

 

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#24 John-in-KC

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Posted 10 August 2016 - 03:52 PM

An awesome update has been published for your reading pleasure.  

 

http://www.scouting....ty/GSS/toc.aspx

 

Enjoy,

 

RichardB

 

 

@RichardB,

 

There is information in the health and medical section that looks like it belong strictly in a "Guide for the Council Surgeon" or in National Camp Standards.

Go here http://www.scouting..../GSS/gss05.aspx

Scroll down to protection considerations.  That paragraph looks like it points entirely to professional health care providers serving on pay or volunteer status at our camps, not leaders in units who would be dealing with an emergency in real time.

I also question the utility of the section on membership and participation guidelines for people with communicable diseases.  Might that not better be in a membership/joining set of documents, and in COR training?


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#25 John-in-KC

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Posted 10 August 2016 - 03:56 PM

Stosh,

 

WRT to the artillery, I suspect the short version is:  Legal counsel have said NWIH.  Thus, for Scouting, it is non-negotiably off the table.

 

I've seen military service weapon inbore explosions and their aftermath.  Then again, I was paid to be an artilleryman.  Banana peeled 203mm howitzer tubes are ...

 

If a re-enactor wants to do it, it's on his organization liability policy.  Scouting?  They've laid it out.  if that wasn't a Scouting incident, it was enough for the General Counsel to give "directive in nature" guidance.


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#26 RichardB

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 07:44 AM

 

Scroll down to protection considerations.  That paragraph looks like it points entirely to professional health care providers serving on pay or volunteer status at our camps, not leaders in units who would be dealing with an emergency in real time.

I also question the utility of the section on membership and participation guidelines for people with communicable diseases.  Might that not better be in a membership/joining set of documents, and in COR training?

 

Anyone providing first aid (including our youth and leaders) should protect themselves from blood or body fluids.  It's a real risk to such things as HIV, Hepatitis and even things like Zika.   In addition, there are legal concerns for staff (which may be volunteers or paid) including lifeguards who need extra training and education including compliance.   BTW this is not a new section, been around long before 2007.    

 

We chose to include it here.  An addition a couple of years ago if I remember correctly.   Generally, both staff and volunteers who have questions find it in the GTSS vs. on the web.    Answer enough questions about it that it is a concern and it really lays out how to "have a plan" to deal with local questions that arise.   

 

Hope that helps.  


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#27 Stosh

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 08:22 AM

Yep, a kid barfed in the mess hall (speaks well for the quality of food) and the staff got out the mop bucket and cleaned it up.  No special biohazard steps taken.  In schools if something like this happens the hazmat team shows up.

 

Kid gets cut?  gloves, eye protection, face shield?  Nope, just wash it off and  put a bandaid on and don' worry about it.

 

Whereas the medical world sees things from one perspective, the world sees it differently.  BSA is totally blind to the situation and sees nothing.


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Stosh

 

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#28 Tampa Turtle

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 08:46 AM

Cannons and Large-Bore Artillery

Units are not authorized, under any circumstances, to use a cannon or any other large-bore artillery device.

 

 

That tears it... I QUIT!!!    :laugh:

 

 

Shhh we still have Trebuchets...


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#29 Stosh

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 09:14 AM

Yep, a kid barfed in the mess hall (speaks well for the quality of food) and the staff got out the mop bucket and cleaned it up.  No special biohazard steps taken.  In schools if something like this happens the hazmat team shows up.

 

Kid gets cut?  gloves, eye protection, face shield?  Nope, just wash it off and  put a bandaid on and don' worry about it.

 

Whereas the medical world sees things from one perspective, the world sees it differently.  BSA is totally blind to the situation and sees nothing.

 

Care to comment or just ding the post for whatever reason?

 

In the world of business, if someone so much as scratches themselves on a staple, they must report it, have it evaluated/treated and any surfaces that were involve need to be sanitized.  Yes, I did that and I had to find the exact staple in the file cabinet that I was scratched on before returning to work.

 

I do believe that is the same process for biohazard fluids in schools as well.

 

I have observed BSA camp staff at one of "BSA's premiere camps" using a mop and bucket to clean up biohazard material with no protection on their persons.

 

That deserves a ding?  One should be reading this and notifying their councils of the importance of keeping up with such matters especially in the G2SS publications as they affect the units.  Corporate biohazard documents make G2SS look pretty sad when it comes to protecting their members in situations like this.

 

I was not allowed to work in the safety department of the corporation I worked for unless I had all the immunizations and followed extensive protocol just to put a bandaid on some poor bloke who poked himself putting up stuff on the bulletin board. 

 

Blood, vomit, body waste, saliva are all treated the same as if it were a chemical spill of some sort in the non-BSA world. 

 

There's a whole litany of diseases, some quite serious that are floating around and the HIPAA rulings means no one has to disclose any of that on their medical form to let you know what those issues are. 

 

And according to G2SS there is the issue of medical biohazard, but the mess hall cleanup was not considered a medical issue when in fact it was.  Shall we talk about the biohazard issue connected to the latrines?  G2SS does not address it at all.


Edited by Stosh, 11 August 2016 - 09:23 AM.

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Stosh

 

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#30 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 09:34 AM

Absolutely.  Khukuri (three syllables): the short sword carried by the Ghurkas (various spellings, but not Bhurka as Word suggests).  So it did not violate the G2SS advice against "large sheath knives, being a short sword carried in a leather-covered wood scabbard.   :D  

Khukuri%20M43_zps3pv5kows.png

Ghurka%20with%20khukuri%202_zpsl3my8rga.

 

This is the  one I want!

 

http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/228


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"Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt


#31 TAHAWK

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 10:09 AM

Sure.

 

"BSA is totally blind to the situation and sees nothing."

 

B.S.A. does not equal every single person who is employed by B.S.A. or is a Scouting volunteer.  

 

On top of human failings, there is the bubble problem: B.S.A. consists of various groups who often don't communicate, as illustrated above with the G2SS vs. B.S.A. publications advocating very large, quite heavy swords.  One could site the contradictory advice on water purification, what to wear in sunny weather, or dish-washing. Some see and some do not.

 

Not to mention how B.S.A. safety rules are generally received here.  

 

What I saw this Summer was the chlorine and plastic gloves (a nice blue) come out when a kid threw up in the dinning hall at camp.  I have no idea what the National Camping School teaches, only what I saw.

 

This (or substantially this) is in several camp manuals (source?):

 

"Blood and Body Fluids

 

Minimize your contact with blood or ANY body fluids, including urine, feces, nasal and eye discharges, saliva or vomit. Advise Health Lodge staff if you have been exposed to another person’s blood or other body fluids. Universal Precautions with regard to Blood and Body Fluids are: 

 

o Spills of body fluids should be cleaned up immediately.

o Reduce contact with contaminated material by using gloves, hand brooms or other techniques to avoid touching the spill directly. o Be careful not to splash contaminated material in eyes, nose or mouth. o Blood contaminated material shall be disposed of in a plastic bag with a secure tie, or a Zip Loc type plastic bag.

o Clean any visible excess fluid from surface with an absorbent paper towel.

o Wet spray entire surface with bleach solution (¼ cup chlorine bleach to 2 ¼ cups of water (1 to 9 solution), made fresh daily).

o Let stand for two minutes. You may let the surface air dry or you may wipe dry after two minutes.

o Remove gloves carefully and wash hands thoroughly with soap and water when finished.

o Floors, rugs and carpeting that have been contaminated by body fluids shall be cleaned by blotting to remove the fluid as quickly as possible, then sanitize by spot cleaning with soap and/or disinfectant or steam cleaned/shampooing the surface.

o Mops or other equipment that is used to clean up spills should be cleaned with soap and water and rinsed with a disinfectant solution, wrung dry as possible and allowed to air dry. If you have any doubt or questions on how to handle a cleanup please notify your Director or the Health Lodge for instructions/assistance."

 

From Scouting.org:

"Protection Consideration for Blood and Bodily Fluids (Universal Precautions)

Treat all blood and bodily fluids as if they were contaminated with blood-borne viruses (i.e., HIV, hepatitis). Do not use bare hands to stop bleeding; always use a protective barrier, and always wash exposed skin areas for at least 15 seconds with soap and water immediately after treating a victim. Consequently, the following personal protective equipment (PPE) must be included in all first-aid kits and used when rendering first aid:

  • Nonlatex gloves to be used when stopping bleeding or dressing wounds.
  • A mouth barrier device for rendering rescue breathing or CPR.
  • Plastic goggles or eye protection to prevent a victim’s blood from getting into a rescuer’s eyes in the event of serious bleeding.
  • Antiseptic for use in cleaning exposed skin areas, particularly if there is no soap or water available.

Clean any blood and bodily fluid spills with an appropriate disinfecting solution, such as 10 parts water to one part bleach.

Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) regulations for blood-borne pathogens (29 CFR Section 1910.1030) apply to health-care professions employed by local councils to staff camp health facilities or to fulfill health officer or lifeguard functions at BSA camps. In addition, all designated responders, identified in the local council’s medical emergency response plan, are affected by the regulations. Visit www.osha.gov."


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#32 Stosh

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 10:24 AM

And how often are the boys taught to disinfect the broom used to sweep out the latrines each day?  Are there gloves provided to do this with?  Bleach provided?  Is any of this even discussed in the troops as part of their camp preparation? 

 

50 years ago a very close friend of mine died as a result of a disease contracted at the very same camp I attended this past summer.  I don't see 50 years of progress to keep that from happening again and I don't see G2SS addressing the issue either.  That's the blindness I refer to.

 

As a national statistic, out of every 330 safety infractions, the person will "get away with it" 300 times.  There will be injury in 29 of those events and one death.  Is that acceptable to BSA?


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#33 Sentinel947

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 11:44 AM

We went to Camp Tuscarora in New York.  On check in my son asked about the sheath knives, throwing knives and throwing tomahawks we had packed.  The ranger said, "if they are legal for the BSA, they are legal here." :)
 
I typically carry a Ontario RD-7 and my son carries a Becker BK-9 when we go backpacking.  The cool factor more than compensates for the extra weight.


The ultra light purist in me just cringed thinking it.. lol
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#34 TAHAWK

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 11:45 AM

Now that we have documented the fact that B.S.A. is not  " totally blind to the situation and sees nothing," how about you start a thread suggesting additional safety and health rules and practices?  I am sure something constructive would result.


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#35 Stosh

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 11:48 AM

Fair enough, I'll put it under I&P where everyone can see it.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#36 NJCubScouter

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 03:14 PM

Fair enough, I'll put it under I&P where everyone can see it.


I know that's a swipe at me because I said more people see posts in I and P. I only said it because it is true. The statistics are right there in front of us.

Nevertheless, if it were really about health and safety it belongs in Open Discussion.
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#37 Stosh

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 04:06 PM

I know of people who are so paranoid that they can't watch football because every time the team huddled up, they thought they were talking about them.  Keep it in mind, that's not always the case when the team huddles up.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#38 NJCubScouter

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 04:29 PM

I know of people who are so paranoid that they can't watch football because every time the team huddled up, they thought they were talking about them.  Keep it in mind, that's not always the case when the team huddles up.


That's funny, but it doesn't apply here.
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#39 Hedgehog

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Posted 11 August 2016 - 06:54 PM

This is the  one I want!
 
http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/228

 

Now I know what to get my son for Christmas.

 

The ultra light purist in me just cringed thinking it.. lol


Yeah, but that means I don't need a shelter, food or a stove.

But seriously, I don't carry it on longer treks - if it is 3 days and 6 to 8 miles a day the extra pound isn't a big deal. If it if five days and 12 plus miles a day, the. I just have my Gerber Paraframe.
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#40 5yearscouter

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 01:26 PM

An awesome update has been published for your reading pleasure.  

 

http://www.scouting....ty/GSS/toc.aspx

 

Enjoy,

 

RichardB

It would be really nice if all scouting volunteers would get a notice when changes are made to documents like the GTSS or GTA


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