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"Boy Scouts thrive after lifting of gay ban."


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#21 Merlyn_LeRoy

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 06:59 PM

Thanks for making my point, Merl.
It's not the legal action itself. But, the potential rhetoric promised to all who step outside "the line."
That's what certain CO's have limited stomach for.
Sticks and stones, no problem.
Names, they hurt.

 

 

 

There IS no legal action.  Names hurt?  When hasn't there been namecalling for the last three decades in this BSA nonsense, hypocrite? (cf. your reference to "the permissive")


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#22 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 08:16 PM

If losing membership is "thriving," I'd hate to see what dying is like.


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#23 NJCubScouter

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 09:00 AM

It's not the legal action itself. But, the potential rhetoric promised to all who step outside "the line."
That's what certain CO's have limited stomach for.
Sticks and stones, no problem.
Names, they hurt.

 

This seems irrational to me.  Similar to what I said above about suing, but take out the suing part:  So someone somewhere says something to a newspaper reporter or tv camera and a church halfway across the country (or whatever) doesn't want to charter a unit anymore?  People are always saying things.  One of my brother's in-laws thinks the BSA is a "paramilitary organization."  (Edited to add:  Since there are a variety of people reading this, I suppose I should clarify that "paramilitary" was not meant as a compliment.)  She told me this years ago, probably even before the "membership policy" became a big deal, but now that the BSA has resolved that issue, presumably she still thinks it is a "paramilitary organization", because one has nothing to do with the other.  

 

So now that I have reported that someone somewhere in New Jersey has this opinion, does that mean someone else should decline to be involved with the BSA?  After all, my brother's in-law may think that someone should raid the BSA to take all the guns away.  Doesn't make sense, right?  Neither does the situation reported by quazse.


Edited by NJCubScouter, 25 July 2016 - 09:06 AM.

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#24 NJCubScouter

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 09:09 AM

If losing membership is "thriving," I'd hate to see what dying is like.

 

Well, what are the actual figures?  The article said membership is "stabilizing".  I hope they're right.

 

(Just want to add, I don't necessarily agree with the assumptions a lot of people make regarding "cause and effect" between the action on the "issues" and the movements in membership.  I think there are a lot of things that cause individuals to join or not join the BSA, and when you add together all these individual decisions there is no one thing that causes the numbers to go up or down.  For example I still don't think the "improved Scouting program" of 1972 played anywhere near as as big a role in the membership decline of that era (which was happening before that anyway), but I know I'll never convince a lot of people about that one, either.)


Edited by NJCubScouter, 25 July 2016 - 09:20 AM.

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#25 Stosh

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 09:10 AM

Somehow Thriving and Stabilizing don't ring true as synonyms.  Sounds more like a PC spin with an agenda to me.


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#26 Eagledad

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 10:30 AM

Since I'm not presently involved, I don't know if the program is stabilizing, stalling, thriving or whatever. What I do see is that the Boy Scouting is not on the front page of the news and discussed in the context of a political talking point. The decision to accept gay boys has for the moment calmed the activism against the movement. It's nice to have a discussions more about the boys. 

 

Barry


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#27 qwazse

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 10:55 AM

There IS no legal action.  Names hurt?  When hasn't there been namecalling for the last three decades in this BSA nonsense, hypocrite? (cf. your reference to "the permissive")

There is nothing hypocritical about finding non-incendiary terms for broad movements. The organization in question identifies itself as restrictive in terms of sexual ethics. The prevailing mood nationally is toward a permissive ethic. As far as I can tell, this is precisely what people are arguing about. If you have more neutral terms for these opposing sides, suggestions are welcome.

 

Now the published desire of certain activists is to ensure insure that BSA goes further in mandating a permissive ethic, regardless of the wishes of the chartered sponsor.

 

So, my repeating to a board -- one that recently came off of litigation to preserve it's right to uphold restrictive sexual ethics -- that "there IS no legal action" rings sufficiently hollow as to give half of them pause. Add the one guy who thinks two dozen 10-year-olds will wreak havoc on a building, and the scouting proponents can't overcome a motion to table.

 

@NJScouter, obviously, I think none of this is rational. I am just describing a situation where perhaps other programs are fast-tracked, but rolling out a BSA unit is shelved. If the opposite is occurring elsewhere, it would be encouraging to hear that story.


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#28 Stosh

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 11:08 AM

Hmmmmm, the day is coming......

 

Christian worship services are open to anyone wishing to come... thus it can be defined as a public place.

 

Christian pastor reading from scripture about such things as sin, will soon be held accountable for promoting hate speech and be arrested.

 

This is how the intolerant work to silence free speech.  Free speech in America is no longer a basic freedom in the Bill of Rights, the others will fall one by one after that is successfully implemented.


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#29 qwazse

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 11:14 AM

Well @Stosh, that day may come -- or it may not, but I think your speech trickles down to lay leadership as "don't make waves".


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#30 NJCubScouter

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 11:23 AM

Let's please avoid name-calling in here.  (The person whose post precipitated this has received a PM, but it applies to everybody.)


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#31 Merlyn_LeRoy

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 12:14 PM

There is nothing hypocritical about finding non-incendiary terms for broad movements.

 

YOU don't get to decide what OTHER people find "incendiary".  Your terminology was clearly used as an insult.


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#32 Merlyn_LeRoy

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 12:15 PM

Christian pastor reading from scripture about such things as sin, will soon be held accountable for promoting hate speech and be arrested.

 

Hate speech isn't a crime in the US, and can't be as long as the first amendment means anything.


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#33 JasonG172

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 12:36 PM

Well, on this particular issue, as far as I know nobody has filed a lawsuit yet, after a year.

 

Or maybe this wasn't an ISSUE to begin with!  The gays aren't knocking our door down to Join.

 

EDIT meant to say "AREN'T"


Edited by JasonG172, 25 July 2016 - 01:00 PM.

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#34 Eagledad

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 12:45 PM

Or maybe this wasn't an ISSUE to begin with!  The gays are knocking our door down to Join.

Well that's good, a lot of families left because of this non-issue.

 

Barry


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"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#35 NJCubScouter

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 12:54 PM

It was an issue.  Nobody had to knock down any doors for it to be an issue.

 

I am sure that in some small number of units across the country - any number would just be a guess - openly gay people have indeed joined or remained, either as Scouts or Scouters.  Nobody has made a huge deal out of it.  There is no sign that any media have been following these people around to do stories on the "gay leader."  That is as it should be.  I am not interested in the "activists" and those who made a lot of noise on either side of this issue.  I am concerned for the average everyday folks who just want to be Scouters and Scouts.  Somewhere, people who never should have been excluded in the first place are quietly joining, and Scouting is better for it.

 

If some people have left Scouting because of this - and I have seen no statistics on that - it is regrettable.  There was no reason for them to leave.

 

(Added) There also doesn't seem to be any indication that those units that wish to exclude openly gay people have encountered any difficulty in doing so.  As far as I know, nobody has sued anybody.  Some of those units have left the BSA, but the vast majority have not.  Every indication is that local option is working, both for those who were previously excluded and for those who qualify to retain their exclusionary policies and wish to do so.


Edited by NJCubScouter, 25 July 2016 - 01:02 PM.

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#36 qwazse

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 01:07 PM

YOU don't get to decide what OTHER people find "incendiary".  Your terminology was clearly used as an insult.

What, pray tell, do I get to do? Read a dictionary? From Webster's ...

  1. 1 archaic :  granted on sufferance :  tolerated

  2. 2 a :  granting or tending to grant permission :  tolerant b :  deficient in firmness or control :  indulgent, lax

What one person sees as 2a, another sees as 2b. Seems like an adequate description of how certain contemporary movements are viewed by themselves or by others around them.

 

I understand that it is far more convenient to demonize someone's language on the path to do dismissing his/her observations.

However, that behavior (as opposed to, say, suggesting more accurate adjective) is exemplary of what leaders of some public organizations weigh in regards to forging partnerships with BSA.

 

Thank you again for making my point.


Edited by qwazse, 25 July 2016 - 01:08 PM.

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#37 Merlyn_LeRoy

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 01:47 PM

 

 

 

I understand that it is far more convenient to demonize someone's language on the path to do dismissing his/her observations.

 

Or to just dismissing people as "the permissive".

 

Regardless, you don't get to decide what other people find "incendiary" or not.

 


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#38 Stosh

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 01:51 PM

I find the path of least resistance is to ignore those who are intolerant.  One doesn't need free speech to ignore someone.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#39 MrBob

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 02:22 PM

I find the path of least resistance is to ignore those who are intolerant.  One doesn't need free speech to ignore someone.

 

Much like the Grinch's heart, my ignore list grew three sizes this day.   :)


Edited by MrBob, 25 July 2016 - 02:24 PM.

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#40 Stosh

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 02:40 PM

That's kind of a nice forum feature.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)





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