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[blw2 433]

I like Beavah's analogy of the canoe MB.

The way I take what he's writing is a question....which came first, the MB requirements, or the going out an learning canoeing to have fun?

 

As Clarke Green is always saying over at his site, let the scouts do what it is that they do, then the requirements will fall into place.... having fun while you're at it.

meanwhile if you take your list of requirements as a checklist out to the water front, and attack that checklist.....how much fun is that?  Not much in my book....

On the other hand, isn't it better if you go out and learn canoeing with your buds in the patrol.... with no other goal but to learn canoeing and to HAVE FUN.....then after the fact somebody pulls out the paper and signing off what you did?

[Stosh 3452]

Chicken or the egg.

 

Sending a bunch of boys out in canoes without any training will someday produce results based on trial and error.  Why have instruction if they are going to have to figure it out on their own only to have it checked off after they have stumbled on the solution.

 

I have been on enough rivers in my lifetime to realize that pin-ball paddling of the newbies is a remarkably stupid endeavor.  It's frustrating for the novice and on a narrow river is discourteous to others out there trying to enjoy the experience.  

 

It's truly remarkable how much tension and frustration dissipates when knowledgeable and even boring instructors are on-site to offer up proper technique and helpful guidance in the process of learning.

[qwazse 4342]

Yah, hmmmm...

 

I reckon that's one of da saddest things I've ever read on a Scoutin' site.

 

Can I suggest yeh at least try the real program, and turn that around?  Start with Step 1: A Scout Learns by doing!   I think you'll find it's a lot more fun for the boys, it makes da badges more meaningful, and yeh get better results in terms of character, fitness, and citizenship.  Not to mention retention and growth.

 

Beavah

When I was a scout, canoeing trips were completely foreign. We never even thought to ask!

But, the MB still was fun and the pamphlet was interesting, and there were enough state parks with small lakes and day-rentals nearby for us to go paddling on our own. Still, learning by doing, I guess. But not nearly as fun as the actual float trips my boys took on the Allegheny.

[Eagledad 2777]

We introduce most of our skills through program theme activities instead of MB or advancement classes. Many times the MB pamphlets are the curriculum guide, but the instruction is not intended as MB class.

 

Not much instruction is required for a patrol to enjoy a day of canoeing on the lake. Actually swimming skills are more of a concern than perfection of the "J" stroke. For those going on a canoeing trek, they get more instruction.

 

Same goes with knots, lashing or even first-aid. Create theme activities and let the scouts learn the skills for the theme.

 

Interestingly we point out they can get a lot of requirements signed off if they talk to their Patrol Leader or MB Councilor, but you would be surprised how many scouts don't take advantage of that guidance. Fun was enough reward for them at that time in their life.

 

Barry

[NJCubScouter 1389]

The way I take what he's writing is a question....which came first, the MB requirements, or the going out an learning canoeing to have fun?

Does anybody have an old edition of the Handbook handy? I believe all the MB requirements were in the book. Last night I looked at the oldest one I had handy, the 1959 edition, but they weren't in there, so it would probably have to be at least one edition before that. Or a Requirements book would help. I also looked on the Internet and found a site that had requirements for a few merit badges from 1911, but I don't think that's a reasonable comparison. What would be useful would be to compare the requirements for Canoeing MB from sometime in the 40's through the 60's, to the requirements of today.

 

I have a feeling I know what you will find, and an opinion as to why, but it's probably better to get the actual answer first.

Edited July 11, 2016 by NJCubScouter

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

Yah, hmmmm...

 

I reckon that's one of da saddest things I've ever read on a Scoutin' site.

 

Can I suggest yeh at least try the real program, and turn that around?  Start with Step 1: A Scout Learns by doing!   I think you'll find it's a lot more fun for the boys, it makes da badges more meaningful, and yeh get better results in terms of character, fitness, and citizenship.  Not to mention retention and growth.

 

Beavah

 

Am I missing something? Why not tie the merit badge to an actual activity in stead of some Merit Badge in a universe without applications. I have seen a number of boys start to get the 'aha' moment of the J-stroke after paddling for a few days...

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

In any case at our recent planning meetings it was the boys that requested we re-start the practice or having the theme, start the MB and other stuff at the meetings and then the camp-out (hiking, biking, etc) where they put it all together. We did the other way last year and they expressed some dissatisfaction. (and no the adults didn't get a vote or a voice).

 

But we would not prohibit a lad from going if he didn't take it as long as there is space.

[Stosh 3452]

Is it even possible to teach the canoeing MB without actually getting in a canoe and going out on the rivers and lakes? 

 

Yes, I have seen and taught boys how to paddle a canoe while they sat on a table and paddled into the air.  I could see exactly what they were doing and how well they were doing it.  Of course this was in Januar/February and the rivers were iced over so we couldn't get the paddles anywhere near the water anyway.  But come March and April the boys did have a head start on what was going to be happening when the canoes got wet.

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

We have done dry runs on paddling and seat switching etc on dry land but most of the practice is at a local dog beach and with some ways many challenging swamping drills. Controlled chaos...fun to watch. Makes the actual trip a lot easier (except for the gators).

[Stosh 3452]

Nah.  If yeh just do those requirements yeh have paddled a canoe a total of 100 yards or so.  200 at most.

 

Really learnin' any discipline can't be reduced to a set of enumerated requirements, eh?  Especially not when half of 'em are "discuss" and definitions and such.  It involves developin' skills and when to apply the skills.  It involves learnin' terms, sure, but also how to use the terms.  Yeh have to be able to demonstrate things not just individually, but in combination.  

 

Doin' just the requirements gives yeh static, disconnected "knowledge".   Just like cramming for any test.  Learnin' how to canoe gives yeh practical, dynamic, interconnected knowledge.  It's the difference between memorizing and understandin'; knowin' about vs. being able to do. 

 

Yeh can "pass" da BSA Canoe MB requirements and still be a danger to yourself and others on the water.  Seen it lots of times .That ain't a fault of the requirements necessarily; the requirements aren't a bad test (though all of our requirements become pretty lame if yeh take a really aggressive "no adding" stance).   It's just that doin' or passin' a test ain't the same thing as learning, as any student anywhere can tell yeh. 

 

I reckon that's where I fault da modern G2A.  It's not so bad, except that it so emphasizes regulatory sorts of stuff that most of our adults newer to Scoutin' haven't learned how Advancement Method is really supposed to work to achieve our Aims, eh?

 

Beavah

 

There has to be a standard.  Advocating a free-for-all basis isn't of any real value to a national/international program for youth.  We have enough yahoo's out there doing their own thing making life miserable for some dedicated hardworking scouts.  And who are these "most of our adults newer to Scouting haven't learned...."?  I'm not running into any of them and most would indicate the majority of them.  What I do find is a lot of dedicated new leaders out there doing their best USING THE ADVANCEMENT as a guide to provide the best skill development for the boys possible.  Maybe in your neck of the woods that isn't so, but I'm seeing 95% of the adults out there doing well with the program in my neighborhood. 

 

And no, I do not think that following the policy of "no adding/subtracting" from the requirements makes them lame.  It makes them honest.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Stosh

[Beavah 205]

 

Sending a bunch of boys out in canoes without any training will someday produce results based on trial and error. 

 

Yah, hmmmm...

 

I'm not sure why we need to go all da way to ad absurdum.   Nobody's suggestin' sending lads out "without any training", eh?  G2SS requires 3 hours of training in any event.  Besides, we all know that the lads will pinball down a river as they learn no matter how much time a well-meaning adult spends lecturing them on canoe mechanics.

 

This is da Advancement forum, eh?  We're talkin' about how Advancement Method is supposed to work.

 

The way Advancement Method is designed to work starts with Step 1: A Scout Learns.  In this example, A Scout Learns How To Canoe.

 

How does a scout do that?  Hopefully his Patrol Leader schedules a patrol outing, or his troop schedules a patrol outing and his Patrol Leader or APL or maybe a troop instructor puts boys in boats!   They demo some basics, the lads practice the basics, and they go out and paddle around with some coachin' here and there by their PL or maybe just another scout in their patrol.

 

If they're like most lads they learn da forward and reverse strokes in the bow, then add sweeps and draws.   Then maybe they switch and try steerin' with sweeps and prys and J's.  Some racin', some games of sharks and minnows, plenty of mayhem that includes handlin' capsizes and such, maybe some current on a river.   They learn by doing with da guidance of friendly older scouts and a counselor.  They keep on doin' until they have learned how to canoe.  Step 1, eh?  A Scout Learns.

 

If a lad has never held a paddle in his life before, this is goin' to take a few times out, eh?  Really paddlin', not air-paddling.  On real outings.  Havin' fun.  Gettin' da full benefit of the knowledge, skill, and experience of a counselor, just like da BSA policy says.

 

Along the way, most of us counselors who paddle with the lads just take note of when they have met various requirements.  Perhaps we even contribute to an occasional capsize, or "subtract" a paddlin' buddy to allow the lad to solo.  Poof!  Merit Badge like magic, eh?  No seat-time, no worksheets, no "tests".  Just havin' fun learnin' how to canoe.  Step 2, eh?  A Scout is tested by just goin' canoeing.

 

Yah, yah, if we can't spend time paddlin' with the lads, then maybe Step 2 looks more like a series of exercises and evaluations, but the point is that those come after a boy has learned how to canoe.

 

Canoeing MB is not the seat-work school yeh go to before you're ready to go on a canoe trip.   Canoeing MB is da recognition yeh get after you've been on some fun canoe trips and learned how to canoe.

 

Beavah

[Stosh 3452]

"Yeh can "pass" da BSA Canoe MB requirements and still be a danger to yourself and others on the water.  Seen it lots of times :p"

 

Then there's something seriously wrong in your neighborhood, but I seriously doubt that this is the norm around the country.  A boy who has passed his swimmer's test, is wearing a life jacket and knows nothing about canoeing can be in a canoe and is in no danger to himself other others.  Such comments just aren't true, even if doctored up cutsy-like. Of course if one needs to exaggerate one can put them in a white-water river situation, but then even an experienced canoeist could be in danger.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Yah, yah, if we can't spend time paddlin' with the lads, then maybe Step 2 looks more like a series of exercises and evaluations, but the point is that those come after a boy has learned how to canoe.

Is anyone arguing that a Scout going for Canoeing MB should not learn to canoe first? Or that the testing should not come after the Scout learns canoeing? Or that learning canoeing means that the Scout knows how to do the things called for in the requirements (at least the requirements that say "demonstrate" as opposed to "discuss", etc.)?

 

This is one of those threads where people seem to be disagreeing about something, but I can't figure out exactly what they are disagreeing about.

Edited July 11, 2016 by NJCubScouter

[desertrat77 1144]

Does anybody have an old edition of the Handbook handy? I believe all the MB requirements were in the book. Last night I looked at the oldest one I had handy, the 1959 edition, but they weren't in there, so it would probably have to be at least one edition before that. Or a Requirements book would help. I also looked on the Internet and found a site that had requirements for a few merit badges from 1911, but I don't think that's a reasonable comparison. What would be useful would be to compare the requirements for Canoeing MB from sometime in the 40's through the 60's, to the requirements of today.

 

I have a feeling I know what you will find, and an opinion as to why, but it's probably better to get the actual answer first.

 

NJ, I believe the edition you are thinking of is the infamous 8th edition, circa '72.   It's best feature was the having 100 percent of all MB requirements listed in the back.  

 

Can't comment on the canoeing issue at hand, I'm jumping in midstream, no pun intended.

Edited July 11, 2016 by desertrat77

[MrBob 96]

We have enough yahoo's out there doing their own thing making life miserable for some dedicated hardworking scouts.  

 

Seems like quite a few of them post here.