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#21 krikkitbot

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 09:35 AM

I learned how to deal with closed toe shoes and blisters.  If done correctly one can maximize safety and don't need sandals.

 

9 days in Philmont, no blisters.  One boy who mirrored what I was doing did not get blisters either.  Everyone else did, some were pulling off bloody socks at the end of the day.

 

Trading cuts for blisters doesn't need to be an either/or choice.

Ironically, I was at Philmont over the weekend picking up my son from NAYLE. I was wearing boots because my wife wanted to go on a hike. I stepped on a rock in the PTC parking lot and rolled my ankle. I now have a lemon size knot on the side of my ankle. 

 

I don't blame the boots. I blame myself for not watching where I was going. ;)


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#22 Stosh

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 09:46 AM

Ironically, I was at Philmont over the weekend picking up my son from NAYLE. I was wearing boots because my wife wanted to go on a hike. I stepped on a rock in the PTC parking lot and rolled my ankle. I now have a lemon size knot on the side of my ankle. 

 

I don't blame the boots. I blame myself for not watching where I was going. ;)

 

That's the importance of a somewhat supportive ankle bracing.  Rolling an ankle on the trail could bring the trek to a quick conclusion.  I wore synthetic hiking boots that came up and gave ankle support but were not the heavy leather.    As the week wore on, I relied more and more on taping my ankle for support.  I was 4-F from the military for flat feet and needed extra attention on the hike with the extra weight of the pack. 


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#23 clivusmultrum

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 08:57 PM

I am pretty late to this thread but it has been on my mind. I am happy to see there is no hard and fast rule against sport sandals. I have hiked thousands of miles in Chacos and similar without difficulty. My experiences seemed at odds with the conventional wisdom. I am happy to let the fellows and their families sort out what is best for themselves.


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#24 Stosh

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 10:21 AM

My mom had 16 stitches in the arch of her foot having stepped on a tent stake while camping.  I got 10 stitches in the bottom of my foot walking barefoot on a beach having made contact with a piece of quartz.  My buddy got 5 stitches swimming in a river after someone left behind a glass beer bottle.

 

I often wonder who much grief we could avoid by not taking chances.  I always wear heavy boots while in camp and I haven't had a foot injury since I was 10 years old.  Sometimes in life we get dealt a poor hand, but after the first time, learning to play the hand better is always a better choice in the next time it comes along.


Edited by Stosh, 27 April 2017 - 10:22 AM.

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#25 NJCubScouter

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 01:52 PM

Our troop does have a rule against open-toed footwear on camping trips.  Obviously there are exceptions.  They used to camp at Sandy Hook, and spend a couple of hours on the beach.  We did not have to wear boots on the beach.  But most of the campsites the troop goes to are so rocky, it's just a matter of common sense.


Edited by NJCubScouter, 27 April 2017 - 01:56 PM.

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#26 Cleveland Rocks

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 11:35 AM

While I agree that there is no national rule saying that you can't wear open-toed footwear at camp (at least I couldn't find any documentation that says it's prohibited), I wanted to relate this story that happened a few years ago:

 

I was on staff at our council's Cub Day Camp in charge of one of the stations. One of the days had the inspector show up to do his inspection of the camp for accreditation. We had told families (and it was on the paperwork that families got prior to camp starting) that sandals, and other types of open-toed shoes would not be permitted.

 

While our camp did very well on the inspection, and we got the accreditation and flag to fly on the flagpole, we did get dinged on the report because he observed Scouts and parents who were wearing sandals and flip-flops, despite us telling them not to (and there wasn't any reason for them to be wearing those types of shoes--we did not have a pool or shower facilities).  We did catch some people and sent them home during the week, but we obviously didn't catch everyone.

 

Anyway, on the report it was noted about these people and the inspector wrote "National Camp Rule" next to the note.  He didn't mark off any points (maybe because a national camp rule on this doesn't exist?) but that was noted as such on the report.

 

That, at least for a few years, burned "No Open-Toed Shoes In Camp--That's a National Camp Rule!" into many people's minds.


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#27 TAHAWK

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:11 PM

Local council camp specifically allows open-toed sandals.


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#28 clivusmultrum

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 04:22 PM

I have encountered more than a few that will speak with an air of absolute authority about rules that turn out to be something more like "guidelines".

 

I'm coming up on a little over thirty years as an almost exclusively sandaled hiker. That has included some serious walking; deserts, mountains, long portages and includes The Appalachian Trail which was over 2000 miles long. a lot of walking... I don't want to seem like I'm bragging but I am seriously credentialed.  Maybe I better touch wood, but my foot, ankle, and leg injuries have been wearing boots. I started my switch to sandals in the bottom of the Grand Canyon when I realized that my fantastic Italian made hikers were doing me in.  Luckily I had a pair of Alp sandals tied to my pack.  My footwear had been depriving me of the feedback from the ground that I really needed. 

 

When I finished the AT I went to work as a hiking boot salesman. There is a lot of hype and a lot of fear being used to sell gear. Now my kid is old enough to dip his feet into Scouting, I want play a part in his experience but I'd rather not play along with the misinformation presented as absolutes. By all means practice your craft. Learn to walk in a world full of obstacles. Fill your mind instead of your pack.


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#29 Stosh

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:39 AM

clivusmultrum  Welcome to the forum!

 

I know a lot of hikers who have personally used different materials that aren't always the recommended choice.  I did not use an all-leather hiking boot as mandated by the SM.  I used the breathable manmade fiber boots that did not produce the blisters the others suffered.

 

When it comes to the boys and making recommendations, I, too, use personal experience and allow the boys to pick the footwear they wish for the trip.  I have extremely flat feet (4-F during the Vietnam War Era) and when I did my Philmont hike I may not have gotten the blisters, but the ankle support was a problem on the last few days.

 

Hap Pigsley is a safety consultant that I have mentioned on forum that I keep playing in the back of my mind.  He said that out of 330 risky activities, 300 times the average person will "get away with it".  29 times, however, will result in injury, and 1 of those times it will result in death.  He did emphasize that the routine of "getting away with it" experiences will give the person a false sense of security to continue the risky activity.  Just sayin'   It's just something I learned because I have been extremely lucky with "getting away with it" all these years.  :)


Edited by Stosh, 19 May 2017 - 08:45 AM.

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#30 TAHAWK

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:31 AM

A friend, commander of a Armored Cavalry Regiment, went to Philmont in very light Nike boots that had no rand (rubber bumper around the edge between sole and upper) and allowed the little toe to hang over a bit.  Very fit guy - VERY..

 

On Day 5 he was having both the toenails on his little toes drilled  to release the blood under the nails of his pulverized toes.  

 

Rocky trails.  YMMV - literally.

 

Next time he went back with well-broken in leather boots.

 

I used Meindl leather/fabric boots that weighed 1.5 lbs more than his.  No problems.  But, then, I have never had a blister on a foot - just fingers.


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#31 clivusmultrum

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 09:26 AM

    My point in examining this thread has more to do with what is an actual rule. When thru-hikers discuss differences of opinion on gear, method, technique , the conversation usually ends with "well, you gotta walk your own walk".  As I am re-entering the BSA I am running into people, BALOO trainers and such, that will state something like it is a hard and fast rule and I find zero to support that written down anywhere. I want to make sure I can walk-my-own-walk without undue conflict. Why not get a pair of Oboz or Merrell's and get by with everybody else? The absolute most candid answer for me is that after 3 decades of using sandals for everything but mowing the yard and date night my feet have come to resemble and work more like a Ruramari or Maasai  or any of those people walking big miles in sandals they've made out of a discarded tire. Feet widen, toes spread apart the skin toughens; If you walk the way your species was originally designed, the binding of shoes will come to hurt. 

   Do I think you should do it my way? Nope, not necessarily. Ive got buddies I enjoy hiking with that wouldn't dream of setting out without a proper pair of mountaineering boots and they're do fine for the most part. Am I much swayed by what I learned getting certified as a boot fitter or the various safety experts? Na, not necessarily. Their vantage is limited in such a way that it excludes the most of the human experience. Porters on the Inca Trail or in Kenya were not surveyed. 

    When my guys are ready to move from sneakers to backpacking kit I will offer up the conventional thought and my own experiences with as little theater as possible. I do want to make sure Im square on the actual rules.


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#32 Stosh

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 02:08 PM

An unshod Indian pony spends it's whole life without shoes.  They are used to it even in rough terrain.  Yet a horse that's lost it's shoe doesn't go very far without finally going lame.  It simply isn't used to being unshod.  A hiker that is used to wearing sandals, except to mow the lawn is not the same as some scout who spends 67% of his day wearing untied sneakers comes from a different world.  As I sit here typing, I am wearing loafers with no socks.  A bit reminiscent of the '60's era.  :)  We all have our own style.  But when it comes to doing an activity different than what one normally does, it might require a bit of going off the normal comfort zone to handle the situation.

 

This brings me to the point where I must ask, why aren't sandals worn while mowing the lawn?  Surely there's a safety factor being added to the not-normal situation of operating a power mower.

 

Scouts spend most of their days either in school walking on hard, but level, smooth surfaces.  Same for at home.  There's a comfort zone normalized for them under these circumstances.  But take that boy outdoors, onto some campsite or mountainous trail and what is considered normal is not there anymore.  Not only are the risks greater, the challenge of walking on surfaces that are not normally encountered makes the effort far more challenging.

 

All I hope, whether it's a rule or not, is that Scouters take into consideration the increased risk associated with encountering an environment that is not normally a part of the scout's experience.  Whether it be shoes/boots, sleeping bags, clothing, or even diet, certain adjustments need to be made to insure the boy has a successful adventure.


Edited by Stosh, 20 May 2017 - 02:11 PM.

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#33 blw2

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 10:02 AM

I have encountered more than a few that will speak with an air of absolute authority about rules that turn out to be something more like "guidelines".

 

I'm coming up on a little over thirty years as an almost exclusively sandaled hiker. That has included some serious walking; deserts, mountains, long portages and includes The Appalachian Trail which was over 2000 miles long. a lot of walking... I don't want to seem like I'm bragging but I am seriously credentialed.  Maybe I better touch wood, but my foot, ankle, and leg injuries have been wearing boots. I started my switch to sandals in the bottom of the Grand Canyon when I realized that my fantastic Italian made hikers were doing me in.  Luckily I had a pair of Alp sandals tied to my pack.  My footwear had been depriving me of the feedback from the ground that I really needed. 

 

When I finished the AT I went to work as a hiking boot salesman. There is a lot of hype and a lot of fear being used to sell gear. Now my kid is old enough to dip his feet into Scouting, I want play a part in his experience but I'd rather not play along with the misinformation presented as absolutes. By all means practice your craft. Learn to walk in a world full of obstacles. Fill your mind instead of your pack.

a bit of a side track...but not really all that much I suppose

curious about which type of sandals currently you like to use for trail hiking?

I've been reading a lot lately about backpacking, and have been gearing back up hoping to do some again.  A long while back I read Andrew Skurka's book about if you pack is light enough trail runners are the way to go...light weight and dry faster

I tend to wear sandals a lot, and have been reading discussions about flip flops, crocs, and such for use as camp shoes and to a lesser degree for fording streams along the AT and other trails.  Since I wear flip flops in daily life when I can, it really strikes me that a good sandal would be great even for use on perhaps all but the roughest trail sections

So I'm interested in what you like for backpacking...


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#34 clivusmultrum

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 09:43 PM

a bit of a side track...but not really all that much I suppose

curious about which type of sandals currently you like to use for trail hiking?

I've been reading a lot lately about backpacking, and have been gearing back up hoping to do some again.  A long while back I read Andrew Skurka's book about if you pack is light enough trail runners are the way to go...light weight and dry faster

I tend to wear sandals a lot, and have been reading discussions about flip flops, crocs, and such for use as camp shoes and to a lesser degree for fording streams along the AT and other trails.  Since I wear flip flops in daily life when I can, it really strikes me that a good sandal would be great even for use on perhaps all but the roughest trail sections

So I'm interested in what you like for backpacking...

 

My everyday sandal is often a pair of Piper Sandals, made by Dave Piper and his family in San Antonio https://pipersandals.com .Though usually for serious hiking I use Chacos. When Alp sandals was bought by Decker I started making my own. That lasted until I tried a pair of Chaco Z/1s. The Chacos have been my go-to since ~1996. I steer away from soft EVA midsoles or anything with strapping that does keep your feet in place on the foot bed.  Soft midsoles tend to deform which puts more strain on muscles and tendons. Chacos have a dense polyurethane midsole that is supportive and doesn't deform. I have a pair that has been resoled and restrapped many times and they're still going strong.  I usually go with the lowest profile sole they are offering (Vibram Colorado). They are plenty grippy and a smidgeon lighter than the deeper lugged models. Socks work well with the Z sandals. Snow can be sort of a drag. It sorta gets packed under the toes between the sandal and the smartwools  :). the only times Ive been on terrain that I thought out matched the Chacos I also needed crampons. 


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#35 clivusmultrum

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 08:18 AM

a bit of a side track...but not really all that much I suppose

curious about which type of sandals currently you like to use for trail hiking?

I've been reading a lot lately about backpacking, and have been gearing back up hoping to do some again.  A long while back I read Andrew Skurka's book about if you pack is light enough trail runners are the way to go...light weight and dry faster

I tend to wear sandals a lot, and have been reading discussions about flip flops, crocs, and such for use as camp shoes and to a lesser degree for fording streams along the AT and other trails.  Since I wear flip flops in daily life when I can, it really strikes me that a good sandal would be great even for use on perhaps all but the roughest trail sections

So I'm interested in what you like for backpacking...

 

blw2, I tried to reply to this earlier but it appears to have not posted-  My go-to sandals are Chaco Z/1s. for everyday wear I use Piper sandals made by Dave Piper and family in San Antonio.

 Chacos have been my mainstays since about ~1996. When selecting I recommend a dense mid sole and a strapping system that will hold you in place. You still have enough movement for your foot to act like a foot. They can be re-strapped and resoled. I have pairs that have undergone restoration several times. The polyurethane midsole doesn't get crushed down like you'd expect from EVA, they are extremely durable.  I get mine resoled with their Vibram Colorado sole. The lugs are almost non existent but they seem grippy enough. You can wear socks with them but wet snow is still pretty annoying. The only times I felt the Chaco wasn't the match for the terrain I actually needed crampons anyway. Chacos are not cheap but they can be found on sale and the good old REI Garage sale will almost always provide a few pairs in good shape.


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#36 blw2

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 10:18 AM

thanks

I think I'll try on a pair next time I come across them

So looking at their web site

 .....you are suggesting the classic, and not the Cloud or Volv?

 

I bought a pair of chaco water shoes, outcross I believe... I like them well enough but bought them a bit too small in a bonehead moment.  good without socks as a water shoe but I wouldn't go large distances in them....


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#37 Stosh

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 11:53 AM

How's about these hikers?  I think you can pick them off the Legionnaire's Website.

 

roman_soldier_by_prisoneronearth-d6icijl


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#38 clivusmultrum

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 10:11 AM

 

So looking at their web site

 .....you are suggesting the classic, and not the Cloud or Volv?

 

 

blw2 the newer ones might be great but I stick with the originals. In fact I recommend you noodle around with this: 

 

 http://www.chacos.co...e67ull6oo1j85aq

 

Gives some clues to how they're made. If you find they agree with you that site will guide you through the custom made process. The custom sandals and repairs are made in Rockford, Michigan. As I mentioned I've had pairs rebuilt and resoled. I like to keep them going and it's nice wearing a pair that I've already walked off the newness.


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#39 clivusmultrum

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 01:20 PM

How's about these hikers?  I think you can pick them off the Legionnaire's Website.

 

 

Stosh, I could see you're a character when you rolled out the story about Indian ponies verses city ponies.

 

Hey- you asked a question about why I wear closed toe shoes when cutting the grass- I'm sure you meant that as a rhetorical but I'll answer anyway. Really it's the same reason I often wear shoes on date night- Superstition.  When I was a kid I saw the immediate aftermath of my father's foot and work oxford encounter with a lawn mower blade. Putting on shoes isn't buying you much. Same deal on date night. On those occasions I'm not in shoes for long enough for it to be too big a bother.

 

My query, I'll repeat, didn't have anything to do with what I'm recommending to my brave Webelos. That is up to their folks and I pack a good first aid kit for their shortcomings. Most will be wearing the same kicks they wear all the time. I was just checking to make sure that I wasn't violating some mandate if I walked my own walk. I perhaps over explained my position but what the heck.


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#40 Stosh

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 01:35 PM

There's a few on the forum that find what I say a problem,  I'm glad you have taken it in intent in which it was given.  I for one use sandals only in camp showers.  Otherwise around the house and yard, I do a lot barefoot or if needed, heavy boots.  Kinda one way or the other.  Back in the '60's when sandals were in "style" I did wear them a lot, but without socks, the wear against skin was a bit harsh.  Never could do the touristy sandals and socks routine.  :)


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