John-in-KC 311 Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 The Jouney to Excellence... - is Metric Management - is done by volunteers - with crappy tools I'm not thrilled about metric management in the first place. Youth aren't numbers, they're people. We are trying to get them to play the great game. That is all. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
jjlash 120 Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 I cannot argue with any of that. However - it is not without value. I use it as a planning tool throughout the year rather than as a yardstick at the end of the year. Not looking at it until the end of the year doesnt leave any time to make improvements. A perfect example, when I updated the sheet last weekend I realized we had not scheduled ILST (youth leader training) yet. That probably would fallen through the crack had I not been reviewing the numbers. I have a spreadsheet setup so I enter our campouts, service projects, advancements etc and the sheet calculates our score. More importantly, it calculates the "real" numbers for those pesky percentages - exactly how many advancements do we need to hit 60% and how many Scouts is 85% retention of "eligible" members. My big complaint is the crappy tools part. When we first changed to JTE they had no tools so I created my own spreadsheet. When they finally came out with a spreadsheet it was confusing and had errors so I stayed with mine. But now, in 2016 why are we still using spreadsheets and paper copies at all. Why isn't this online and integrated with ScoutNet/Akela. They already have all of our membership numbers and advancement numbers. It could even know about our outings if the unit does tour plans. Dont even get me started on the poor tools for district level volunteers. </rant> 1 Link to post Share on other sites
perdidochas 658 Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 The Jouney to Excellence... - is Metric Management - is done by volunteers - with crappy tools I'm not thrilled about metric management in the first place. Youth aren't numbers, they're people. We are trying to get them to play the great game. That is all. Well, JTE helped our troop. Going through it the first time, we realized what we needed to do to enliven our troop and make it more productive (namely up our outdoor game). Since the first time, though, it's been worthless. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
MattR 2659 Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 I think it was designed for low hanging fruit. It hasn't done us much good. I'm not sure there is a way to quantify what is inherently qualitative. Stosh will go nuts with this but in a way he's right. This thread could be tied to the other thread about losing webelos to other organizations that provide the outdoors without what scouts provides. That difference is what needs measuring. I'm just now sure how to measure it. Link to post Share on other sites
desertrat77 1144 Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 JTE drives.... Quantity over quality. Form over substance. Add some of the worst software in the history of computing, and you've got a program that will keep managerial types in meetings for weeks on end. We shouldn't quantify everything. Sometimes having steady membership who enjoy a great program is success enough. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Our troop has never bothered with JTE. I don't think the form has ever been filled out. I am not quite sure how we have gotten away with it, because in the past our district had really pushed Quality Unit, and I know that the percentage of units making Quality Unit (and presumably now JTE) determine certain things at the district/council level that they feel are important. (I have never thought it important to find out what those things are, so you don't need to tell me unless you really want to.) Of course, it is possible that someone somewhere is filling out the forms for us and not even telling us. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted June 2, 2016 Author Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) If I were the CSE... - JTE would run not Jan 1 - Dec 31, but recharter planning meeting to recharter planning meeting (the night you get your packets. - It would be a report do not have to give input to, tapping into the volumes of data BSA and Councils collect on youth: -- Advancements, in rank and merit badges. -- Long term camping. -- For units using Council properties, short term camping. -- Membership joins in the previous year -- Migration of youth from previous charter year (age-outs and drop-outs) -- FOS participation All of that is there. Input service hours from Eagle projects. That can be done by simply adding a requirement to Eagle: Record service hours in the National database. You will be given a logon and password when your Eagle app is returned by Council as ready for EBOR. Voila. You've hit membership, program, money, and service in one fell swoop, and with the exception of service, the unit didn't have to do a keystroke. National has its metrics, and the IH/COR/CC/Leader have a tool. Edited June 2, 2016 by John-in-KC 1 Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4342 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 ...Input service hours from Eagle projects. That can be done by simply adding a requirement to Eagle: Record service hours in the National database. You will be given a logon and password when your Eagle app is returned by Council as ready for EBOR..... Yep, you just lost me there. Look, I don't need my troop to brag about how much service they've done. I don't need my Eagles to be burdened with anything except understanding the concept of man-hours in a relatively straightforward task. (Having tallied their project, they may be better aware of or the "cost" of other public works. Hopefully that knowledge will make them better citizens.) I've got no problem incentivizing the process of logging hours so national can have bragging rights. Talk up the Good Turn for America all you want. But the minute it turns into some mandatory exercise for some accountability or bragging rights is the minute bogus data starts to flood the system. It's a lousy one-page form people! Eyeball your numbers. Circle the rating you think fits your troop in each category. Run it by your youth leaders to see if it's about right. Boom. Done. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
walk in the woods 888 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 - IT Systems should automatically calculate the metrics that can be calculated (membership, advancement, service hours at a minimum). The extra work required to generate the metrics will ultimately drive people away from the form. People are already entering much of the information online, produce a dashboard to display it back. - Metrics could be made more meaningful. For example, the number of weekend campouts and number of services hours is fairly meaningless. Which is more quality an 100 member unit with 20 boys on each camping trip or a 30 member unit with 15 boys on each trip? A percentage of boy-nights camping and boy-hours in service would be better. Imperfect but better. - Mostly though, in my experience, people need to quit micro-managing the tool. IMNSHO, scouts shouldn't know or care about JTE or what it stands for. Most adults shouldn't either. Review the measures/metrics every quarter or so with the unit key 3 and adjust the business process as needed. Link to post Share on other sites
King Ding Dong 540 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) It's a lousy one-page form people! Eyeball your numbers. Circle the rating you think fits your troop in each category. Run it by your youth leaders to see if it's about right. Boom. Done.Do Your Best. A rank advancement form is one page as well. I wonder how this approach would go over in this thread. http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/28207-something-to-give-in-place-of-badge-at-graduation/ Edited June 2, 2016 by King Ding Dong Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Yah, @@John-in-KC just threw da gauntlet down there, eh? JTE exists primarily for da evaluation of professionals and (to some extent) councils. It's really an odd sort of thing for folks in unit service, and has been since da beginning since it really isn't for unit service. I confess I'm not a big fan, but I help get da numbers a bit as a good turn for our pros. On da unit side, I think it's like any of our materials, eh? Use it if it works for yeh, modify it or drop it if it doesn't. I really don't get why we can't fill in half of da things ourselves at da council level rather than givin' a bunch of busywork to the units, though. What makes a better measure for me is askin' adult and youth leaders how we're doin' in providin' them service, and what we could be doin' better. For some reason, feedback on service is missin' from all levels of JTE. Beavah 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Ankylus 52 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 JTE drives.... Quantity over quality. Form over substance. Add some of the worst software in the history of computing, and you've got a program that will keep managerial types in meetings for weeks on end. We shouldn't quantify everything. Sometimes having steady membership who enjoy a great program is success enough. I couldn't agree more. Our Committee Chair, however, is a big fan. Fine. He can do it to his heart's content. But I agree that it emphasizes metrics over reality. The older I get, the more I realize that scouting from the professional's perspective is like any other bureaucracy...it's not about the people it ostensibly serves, it is about the bureaucracy's own best interests. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4342 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 I couldn't agree more. Our Committee Chair, however, is a big fan. Fine. He can do it to his heart's content. But I agree that it emphasizes metrics over reality. The older I get, the more I realize that scouting from the professional's perspective is like any other bureaucracy...it's not about the people it ostensibly serves, it is about the bureaucracy's own best interests. Oh, if you got somebody who likes filling in the boxes (be it a youth or adult) let them have at it! They might generate some useful feedback! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
walk in the woods 888 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 What makes a better measure for me is askin' adult and youth leaders how we're doin' in providin' them service, and what we could be doin' better. For some reason, feedback on service is missin' from all levels of JTE. Beavah I have concerns about JTE, but, the recruiting, retention, and advancement metrics are or should be a reflection of the service a unit is providing. That said, JTE isn't the only tool. The Board of Review is another tool to use to ask scouts about the service a unit is providing and should be used in conjunction with JTE, along with scoutmaster conferences. One can't simply look at JTE in isolation from the rest of the program. Put JTE in play with some standard CMM or continuous improvement models and you get a reasonable set of management tools for a committee and COR to base an initial review of their program. They are simply frameworks for evaluation. I wonder if some folks are challenged by JTE because it forces some introspection on the work they are actually accomplishing????? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 I have concerns about JTE, but, the recruiting, retention, and advancement metrics are or should be a reflection of the service a unit is providing. Well, da first problem is that da way JTE is used is not really to evaluate da unit, eh? It's to evaluate the district professionals and district. Tell me, how does the district and the district pro really affect retention in the unit or advancement in the unit, or even unit recruitin'? The only way to do that directly is to run advancement mill weekends and paper signups. So that's what yeh get, sometimes. In terms of da unit, do we really think that the best thing for folks is to introduce 'em to some CMM or continuous improvement models? Really? I'm not sure we've got any good data that they work in large corporations where people are bein' paid. Mostly they're sorta despised, eh? Why would yeh do that to volunteers? Let's be honest, every unit out there knows where they stand on recruitment and retention and participation and advancement without havin' to fill out a form. Da problems are usually that they don't have the volunteer strength to move forward on things, eh? Either that, or local circumstances won't let 'em in some way, like when a DE starts too many small units in an area. JTE doesn't really help with that. Besides, da work we are actually supposed to be accomplishing is to help young fellas grow in citizenship, character, and fitness. I'm not sure there's anything on JTE that is really measuring those outcomes at all. At da council level our mission is to provide service, and there's nuthin' that actually measures providing service. JTE mostly just feeds da Irving executives' needs for fillin' in powerpoints and presentation folders. Beavah 2 Link to post Share on other sites
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