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Who owns troop gear?


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#21 CalicoPenn

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 07:33 PM

Snarly - it sounds to me like the Church is still wanting to sponsor the Troop.  By all means, contact the commissioners staff - start with the District Commissioner (not the Council Commissioner - it's a fine idea but jumping over the District Commissioner directly to the Council Commissioner is a bridge you don't need to burn).

 

But more to the point - the SM has absconded with the unit's gear - a unit that is controlled by the CO.  You should also encourage the COR and IH to send a certified letter to the Scoutmaster demanding the return of all the unit's gear, as well as any keys he and his family may have to the unit's closet.  In that letter, the CO should (after consulting with the local police so that they are informed and ready to act if needed) that they have 5 business days to return all of the gear and any financial records they may have including the check book, to the CO or that the police will be brought in to arrest them for theft.

 

Yes - you're about to burn bridges with this family - and so is the church - and yes, the Troop will have to be rebuilt, and that can take some time - but ultimately this is going to have to happen if the Church truly wants to continue to sponsor the unit.


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#22 Stosh

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 08:02 PM

As an ASM, a CA and SM, I have taken people to small claims court and gotten back the property of the CO.  It's not that hard to do. 

 

What one does NOT want to do is get a settlement judgment that the person is not going to honor.  Instead, file and appear in court and if the people with the property do not show, it is normal to have the judge settle with a judgment that will never get resolved.  He will say you have the right to the property, but getting it is is next to impossible. 

 

Instead, ask the judge for a contempt of court ruling for not showing up at the hearing.  Nothing gets peoples' attention like an outstanding arrest warrant.  It's rather surprising how fast that property shows up and the contempt charges dropped when done in this manner.


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#23 qwazse

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 10:37 AM

... [as an aside, what church are we talkin' about, and what's their position on transgendered folks?  The church may wish to make a change on that basis for its own reasons.] ...

I remember from September's topic! Episcopalian. Pretty open minded towards all kinds of sinners. Sexual expression is the least of its concerns (much to the annoyance of the Anglican communion). That problem in itself seems to be Snarlys and maybe a few parents who never let their kids join in the first place.

 

But, in this particular case, I'm not sure a CO would push for removal. They might even allow the leaders to part with the gear if the original CO is on speaking terms with the receiving CO. The real problem is a CO like this is trying to push for everyone to just get along without making any real effort to understand the dynamics. From their view, so what if someone said something in church that put one part "on the outs"? That doesn't mean they aren't welcomed in other circles.

 

But, scouters don't compartmentalize that easily.


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#24 5yearscouter

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 12:41 PM

The DE's primary job is fundraising

and then getting new units

and then growing membership

 

Anything else like support for volunteers or units comes after that.


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#25 Krampus

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 12:57 PM

The DE's primary job is fundraising

and then getting new units

and then growing membership

 

Anything else like support for volunteers or units comes after that.

 

Odd...because the many job descriptions I see that define what the DE's role is says otherwise.

 

If you have evidence that supports your assumption it would be good to post it. The several dozen I have found while looking online show that there are several main objectives of a DE, not the least of which is volunteer relations with unit leaders and CORs...which would seem to cover this situation perfectly.


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#26 5yearscouter

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 10:32 PM

I know a lot of DE's personally and their job depends on their fundraising numbers being high as possible, donations from businesses and Friends of Scouting being primary sources.  The paperwork all says they do this other stuff too, but if you don't make your FOS goal you won't work for that council for very long.


Edited by 5yearscouter, 11 May 2016 - 10:32 PM.

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#27 TAHAWK

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 10:33 PM

Our DEs average slightly over six months as "professionals," typically were not in Scouting as youth, have a BA in liberal arts, and are about 23 years of age. So, typically, "not a clue."

 

Whatever their job in theory, in practice it's 

 

 fundraising,

and then getting new units

and then growing membership

 

For example, last rechartering round, since our district had no Commissioner, we imaging one of our two district "professionals" would help sort out the typical confusion.  Nope.   See above three functions in practice.


Edited by TAHAWK, 11 May 2016 - 10:34 PM.

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#28 TAHAWK

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 10:34 PM

"Patrol Method"?


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#29 jrdalys

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Posted 23 May 2016 - 01:02 PM

I think I know the family in question...went to Webelos Woods a couple of years ago with my son and was rather surprised at the interesting people running the show.  If its the area I think it is, you have a DE who is fairly new but has a District Director (or senior DE) who has been around seemingly forever in the same office (but the DD is responsible for the neighboring district to the north).  I wouldnt really expect either to help you very much beyond facilitating a discussion with the SM.  Perhaps that would suffice.


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#30 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 23 May 2016 - 02:50 PM

Our DEs average slightly over six months as "professionals," typically were not in Scouting as youth, have a BA in liberal arts, and are about 23 years of age. So, typically, "not a clue."

 

Whatever their job in theory, in practice it's 

 

 fundraising,

and then getting new units

and then growing membership

 

For example, last rechartering round, since our district had no Commissioner, we imaging one of our two district "professionals" would help sort out the typical confusion.  Nope.   See above three functions in practice.

 

 

Yep that's the typical DE. And yes, if you don't make your goals, you won't last long at all.  MONEY, MEMBERSHIP, MANPOWER was the mantra.


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#31 Ankylus

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Posted 31 May 2016 - 01:32 PM

qwazse,

First, you need to decide if you are really going to fix this problem, because to fix this problem you are going to have to go scorched earth. By that, the SM and his family need to be removed and booted. But you need to buy time until recharter probably. (We recharter in December.)

 

Remember, though, if you fail this is the guy who signs off on your son's advancement.

 

He's clearly not talking to the COR or anyone else at the CO. This is your golden opportunity, and he's a fool for this because it is providing you a chance to get the CO on your side, and the CO will always have the upper hand. (Well, not always. I have seen situations where that wasn't true. But it's a truly ugly story for another time.) You need to spend some time with the COR and, perhaps, the pastor of the church. Educate them a little bit, not only as to their rights and responsibilities, but as to what this yahoo and his family are up to. Tell the COR he doesn't have to sign the recharter paperwork until he is happy with the adult leadership.

 

To buy time, I would even suggest that he come by on occasion to watch the yahoo in action. Maybe the COR can ask the yahoo in a public forum why they aren't meeting at the church and where the equipment is. It will be harder for the yahoo to lie and the COR can explain the "misunderstanding" and the "miscommunication" in a public setting. Kill the yahoo with kindness at this point.

 

Then, suggest that the CO needs to step in and find new leadership at the SM level. Have some qualified names ready to offer for his consideration. Then, when it's time for recharter, file the paperwork with the new SM's name in it. 

 

Oh yeah, and if the SM objects and absconds wtih the equipment? Call the constable. Don't play around, because he won't. He's already established the he lies and is underhanded and devious. You will need to take strong action to counter all that. Like I said, scorched earth.


Edited by Ankylus, 31 May 2016 - 01:33 PM.

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#32 jc2008

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 10:17 PM

We are taking about where a troop meets and its "stuff".

What we need to be talking about is
WHAT IS BEST FoR THE YOUTH!

If the sm is unhappy or uncomfortable with the church, move.
The church doesn't seem Overly involved as the cor don't have any
Idea much about their scout troop as op stated.

Ops son WANTS to be in the troop so obviously something is being done right
If kids want to be in troop.

No one is trying to run off with the troops stuff that belongs to the co to have for
Personal use. The stuff is still being used by the scouts and again what is best for the youth
Comes up again.

I would stop trying to stir the pot about item ownership if the things in question are still being used
For their intended purpose: To Give the youth a good scouting program

As for the other complaints, when adults cannot get along in units, there is one easy solution which is for
The adults who are unhappy to form a new unit. More often than not you get a new found respect for all
The grievances you had with the old regime.
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#33 TAHAWK

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 08:58 AM

 Typically, a Scout wants to be in a troop because of other Scouts in the troop. especially his patrol.  The goals and methods of Boy Scouting are not foremost in his decision-making.  Also, he probably has nothing to which to compare the troop he is in.


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#34 SpEdScouter

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 03:01 PM

qwazse,

First, you need to decide if you are really going to fix this problem, because to fix this problem you are going to have to go scorched earth. By that, the SM and his family need to be removed and booted. But you need to buy time until recharter probably. (We recharter in December.)

 

Remember, though, if you fail this is the guy who signs off on your son's advancement.

 

He's clearly not talking to the COR or anyone else at the CO. This is your golden opportunity, and he's a fool for this because it is providing you a chance to get the CO on your side, and the CO will always have the upper hand. (Well, not always. I have seen situations where that wasn't true. But it's a truly ugly story for another time.) You need to spend some time with the COR and, perhaps, the pastor of the church. Educate them a little bit, not only as to their rights and responsibilities, but as to what this yahoo and his family are up to. Tell the COR he doesn't have to sign the recharter paperwork until he is happy with the adult leadership.

 

To buy time, I would even suggest that he come by on occasion to watch the yahoo in action. Maybe the COR can ask the yahoo in a public forum why they aren't meeting at the church and where the equipment is. It will be harder for the yahoo to lie and the COR can explain the "misunderstanding" and the "miscommunication" in a public setting. Kill the yahoo with kindness at this point.

 

Then, suggest that the CO needs to step in and find new leadership at the SM level. Have some qualified names ready to offer for his consideration. Then, when it's time for recharter, file the paperwork with the new SM's name in it. 

 

Oh yeah, and if the SM objects and absconds wtih the equipment? Call the constable. Don't play around, because he won't. He's already established the he lies and is underhanded and devious. You will need to take strong action to counter all that. Like I said, scorched earth.

 

I just wonder what if Mr. "Yahoo" is reading this right now?


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