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#1 SnarlyYow

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 10:56 AM

It's my understanding that the Charter Organization owns the troop's gear and supplies. Is this correct?


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#2 Stosh

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 11:00 AM

Yes under most situations.  If boys all go out and rake yards as a patrol and buy patrol gear it's theirs.  If they use the CO's non-profit status to raise money, it belongs to the CO.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#3 Krampus

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 11:02 AM

It's my understanding that the Charter Organization owns the troop's gear and supplies. Is this correct?

 

Sort of. If you read the BSA documents it says that the CO owns the gear BUT it is essentially "ear marked" for a Scouting unit. So, in other words, a CO could not kick out a Scout unit, take their gear and use for their own youth group. The charter agreement and supporting documents between the CO and BSA has that gear ear marked for use by Scouts for the Scouting program.


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#4 Beavah

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 11:07 AM

Yah, @SnarlyYow, let's take a step back, eh?   Generally when someone pops in with a question like that, there's a backstory that matters. :unsure:

 

So as Paul Harvey would say, what's da rest of the story?

 

As a general answer to your question, though, the Chartered Organization is the owner of the troop's assets, generally speakin'.   Not just assets that were paid for by fundraisin', but all of da assets that aren't owned by individual boys or adults.

 

Beavah


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#5 SnarlyYow

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 11:29 AM

Yah, @SnarlyYow, let's take a step back, eh?   Generally when someone pops in with a question like that, there's a backstory that matters. :unsure:

 

So as Paul Harvey would say, what's da rest of the story?

 

As a general answer to your question, though, the Chartered Organization is the owner of the troop's assets, generally speakin'.   Not just assets that were paid for by fundraisin', but all of da assets that aren't owned by individual boys or adults.

 

Beavah

 

HA! MORE DRAMA!

If you remember, last September I posted about our SM being kind of a loose cannon and appointing his transgender "sister" as Venture Crew Leader without any input from the CO or the committee. I'm the Committee Chair of the troop. And, really, the level of drama around this troop is too much. I pulled my son, 15, out but he has friends in the troop and begrudged his mother and I for it. So he's back in.

Anyway, a couple months back the troop moves meetings from the CO's Church. I ask the SM why and I'm told: "The church blamed us for ruining their carpet and asked us to leave."
 

The CO lost it's pastor, who was a huge supporter of the troop, and the CO Rep is elderly and totally uninvolved. There really wasn't anyone at the CO involved in Scouts any longer. I didn't ask any questions, there really wasn't anyone at the CO to ask them of.

So a couple weeks go by and I get a call from someone at the church, just someone on the grounds committee, and he asks: "Where's our troop? Are they meeting here?"

And I say no and explain what was told to me. And he says: "no, no. That's not right. We asked the SM to keep the carpet clean the week before Easter since we had it cleaned for Easter service. But the kids trashed it (Oregon, rain, mud, etc.) Also, the troop's closet, where they store pots and pans, had an awful smell coming out of it." (The kids frequently don't wash pots and pans before returning from campouts. This is an ongoing issue.) Basically, the church was like: "You need to take care of a couple things."

The SM, his mother, "sister", and Father all go to this church, and all of them are drama magnets. It's been an ongoing issue.

So I let it go. Honest-to-God, I just wanted to avoid all the drama.

Then we get a new CO REP to replace the elderly lady. This one knows nothing about Scouts.

Then I get another call last night from a member at the church saying: "Where's the troop's stuff? Everything is off the premises."

So now I'm livid. Scouts starts in 20 minutes. So I go down there and I overhear the SM and AVCL talking about moving our Charter Organization. And I let him talk for a while. And I say: "So, who'd you tell about this at the church?" And he says our Charter Org Rep. And I say, that's funny because the church is calling me asking where their troop and gear is. Then a flurry of excuses from the SM; "he talked to the CO Rep." "There was a personal attack against his Mother" (who's active in the troop.) Basically, this litany of excuses and problems the CO has with the Troop. Then I ream him out for twenty minutes in front of all the parents, saying that the CO has no idea what's going on. He's not communicating with the committee or the CO. And that he simply cannot remove the CO's gear without their permission.

I get home and call the new CO REP who, again, knows nothing about Scouts. I ask her if she talked to the SM about the troop leaving the CO and she says she hadn't spoken to him. So I catch the SM in this massive lie. Basically, he's saying: "We were kicked out of the church for this bogus reason and I talked to the CO REP about leaving and they're okay with it." Meanwhile the CO is saying: "We have no idea what's going. We asked for some basic things, like not having four week old meatballs stored in filthy dutch ovens in our closet. Now the SM and Troop appears to have vanished."

So I explain to the CO REP that the gear is the COs, she was unaware of this. And that the SM just can't take off with the gear and go look for a new CO. That's not how it works.

And what irks me is the SM wants to treat the thing like it's his own private club. He can just do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. But that's not how Scouts work. And you can't create these massive lies about everyone else to get whatever you want.

That's the story.


Edited by SnarlyYow, 10 May 2016 - 11:29 AM.

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#6 qwazse

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 11:43 AM

So, a practical example:

 

To merge with another troop peaceably, we changed CO's. However, that CO does not have storage space, our former CO (with which some had a spat, not unlike yours) does. They make no bones about us using the equipment because, although it's "theirs," it was bought and paid for with scouting fundraisers for scouting purposes. So much so, that they would not even think of borrowing from our cache of charcoal, I had to "do them a favor" and get some for them from their non-scout half of the storage.

 

So last night, the boys were at the former CO, cleaning out the garage, inventorying gear, putting it back neatly, and getting second hand MB pamphlets and uniforms that they could use for camp (and munching on a recently expired box of single-serving corn chips).

 

The troop is always welcome back to the old CO, and can use their gear and storage space as long as the boys keep scouting with a smile and the CO can afford to keep the doors open (a different issue).

 

That's how it's supposed to work. Make love not war ... yada yada ya.

 

Thank your SM for checking out the CO's gear and inventorying it. You have word from the CO that he may return it ASAP.


Edited by qwazse, 10 May 2016 - 11:43 AM.

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#7 Krampus

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 11:52 AM

Sounds like it is time for the District and Council folks to earn their money and get involved, straighten out that SM and his family.


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#8 blw2

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 12:47 PM

yeah

it does sound way outa hand.

Maybe too late to even get into this, but the SM reports to you as the CC.  Sounds like that small tidbit has been lost in the drama.

Sounds like he's gone around, under, and over you.....

Maybe it does seem like a good time for the BSA folks to get involved.

 

kinda seems like you need to take a look at this

http://www.scouting...._March_2015.pdf
 

and more specifically this statement:

What happens to the unit funds and equipment should the unit dissolve? The unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall turn over the surplus, if any, to the chartered organization or the council, as may be agreed upon, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America.

I can't out my finger on it at the moment.... but something else I recently found said basically this

about the last sentence in the above reference....

that the CO can hold the stuff for use in basally forming another troop

or they might agree to pass it along to another troop... as in a neighboring troop/CO.... or to the new CO where your old troop is going....

....it's to be worked out between them and the BSA council.

basically, The SM has nothing to do with it.


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#9 Krampus

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 01:33 PM

yeah

it does sound way outa hand.

Maybe too late to even get into this, but the SM reports to you as the CC.  Sounds like that small tidbit has been lost in the drama.

Sounds like he's gone around, under, and over you.....

Maybe it does seem like a good time for the BSA folks to get involved.

 

kinda seems like you need to take a look at this

http://www.scouting...._March_2015.pdf
 

and more specifically this statement:

What happens to the unit funds and equipment should the unit dissolve? The unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall turn over the surplus, if any, to the chartered organization or the council, as may be agreed upon, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America.

I can't out my finger on it at the moment.... but something else I recently found said basically this

about the last sentence in the above reference....

that the CO can hold the stuff for use in basally forming another troop

or they might agree to pass it along to another troop... as in a neighboring troop/CO.... or to the new CO where your old troop is going....

....it's to be worked out between them and the BSA council.

basically, The SM has nothing to do with it.

 

It's in the Rules and Regulations of BSA and alluded to in the charter. The exact link is in the other thread on this topic.


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#10 MtnScouter

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 02:57 PM

HA! MORE DRAMA!
[SNIP]

 

[/UNSNIP]
 

That's the story.

 

Holy Smokes BATMAN! 

 

How is the DE not totally up that SM's southern hemisphere?

 

Isn't there a committee that votes up or down the SM there? Or is that SM's family the whole of the committee?  

 

I'm not just talking about the troop equipment either! 


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#11 qwazse

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 03:25 PM

Holy Smokes BATMAN! 

 

How is the DE not totally up that SM's southern hemisphere?

 

Isn't there a committee that votes up or down the SM there? Or is that SM's family the whole of the committee?  

 

I'm not just talking about the troop equipment either! 

Officially a COR and CC can decide who leads their units. COR can pick the CC. Really, the buck stops with COR.

However, consensus from a unified committee is the best way a COR can make that decision. Lacking that consensus, the COR should make a decision that best represents the will of the CO.

(This, by the way, is why many unit leaders are quite comfortable keeping CORs in the dark.)

 

@SnarlyYow, you should

  • Call your DE and let him know you are deeply concerned about a unit setting up shop with a CO just down the road. Lacking any input from other scouters such as yourself, the DE will fast-track that charter ... looks good on his performance review. The DE might think twice if knows that the proposed CO is forming with stolen equipment, and your COR won't hesitate to call the SE and contest any charter signed under false pretenses.
  • Don't expect the DE to resolve this. Just let him/her know that from where you sit, boys and girls are being cheated out of a positive scouting experience if this adult leader makes this drastic move. By the book if the SM starts a new unit, that's exactly what it is. The unit numbers stay with the CO. Period. Make sure the DE understands this and communicates it unambiguously to your renegade SM.
  • Train your COR. Have her read through this material http://www.scouting....ningtheCOR.aspxand take this course http://www.scouting....FastStart.aspx.
  • Keep an open mind. If the SM wants to start a new troop, and the CO does indeed seem to be offering more of whatever. Give that institutional head a call. I'm sure they would like to know of your experiences.

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#12 Krampus

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 03:33 PM

  • Don't expect the DE to resolve this. Just let him/her know that from where you sit, boys and girls are being cheated out of a positive scouting experience if this adult leader makes this drastic move. By the book if the SM starts a new unit, that's exactly what it is. The unit numbers stay with the CO. Period. Make sure the DE understands this and communicates it unambiguously to your renegade SM

 

DEs are paid staff, no?

 

Why wouldn't one expect a DE to step in a situation like this which would seem very much a core component of their job? 


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#13 SnarlyYow

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 03:34 PM

Holy Smokes BATMAN! 

 

How is the DE not totally up that SM's southern hemisphere?

 

Isn't there a committee that votes up or down the SM there? Or is that SM's family the whole of the committee?  

 

I'm not just talking about the troop equipment either! 

 

The problem is that the SM and his family have too much power on the troop. Other poeple have come in and tried to get involved but they get run off. We had an ex-military guy as the ASM for a spell, but our SM and him couldn't stand one another. At one point the SM's kid accused the ASM of hitting his own child; so I had to suspend him while there was investigation. I mean, basically the whole thing is a ******* sideshow. I had pulled my kid out and traded troops before, but my teenager just hated me for since he has friends in this troop. And this SM does do a load of outings, which is good. But the guy himself is a wreck.

Right now the leadership team is:

SM: "Smith Family Son"

Crew Leader: "Smith Family "Daughter""
ACL: Someone else.

Person highly involved: "Smith Family Mother"
Other person highly involved: "Smith Family Father"

And these "Smiths" have a way of just running off other people who want to help. They are highly disorganized. They show up late to everything, up to an hour late for outings. It's a wreck. But there's not anyone who can take it over because they have prevented others from giving quality time, they hold all the reigns. Look, it's a cluster. The only reason I'm involved is because my kid insists on going. And now I'm staring down this problem of the "Smiths" just doing whatever. They do not, and have not, ever done what the committee suggests, nor do they seemingly ever follow Scout procedures as related to Troop Hierarchy. They just do whatever they like whenever they like. And, honest to God, I just want to let them do whatever and not worry about it. But my kid insists he go, and I'm the committee chair, so I stick around.


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#14 Beavah

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 03:41 PM

DEs are paid staff, no?

 

Why wouldn't one expect a DE to step in a situation like this which would seem very much a core component of their job? 

 

Because it's really not a core component of their job, eh?


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#15 Krampus

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 03:45 PM

Because it's really not a core component of their job, eh?

 

Sorry, unit health and execution of the charter agreement is not a core component of their job? Since when?

 

DE's are always after me for my JTE paperwork which is tied to exactly all this.

 

The DE needs to get off his/her butt and get involved and bring the CE with them. This is an accident waiting to happen.

Read this @Beavah. The job summary spells out the perview of the DE which fits this case just fine. What the DE doesn't cover would certainly be covered by the CE or someone under their joint control. A simple google search brought up 2 dozen or so similar job descriptions for DEs, so let's not say this isn't part of their core job when evidence says otherwise, eh?


Edited by Krampus, 10 May 2016 - 03:52 PM.

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#16 qwazse

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 03:51 PM

DEs are paid staff, no?

 

Why wouldn't one expect a DE to step in a situation like this which would seem very much a core component of their job? 

Well, one would, until one's seen the slow-motion train-wreck and has expended precious time helping new scouters glue back the pieces four years later.

 

@SnarlyYow, keep those memories of the smiles on the youths' faces (your son's, first and foremost) in your head through all of this. For whatever reason (destiny or what-have-you), you are "the guy". Relax. Get your CO and your DE up to speed.

 

Then, make it clear to this family that they are okay (maybe pinch yourself to get those words out), but they could be better. You're asking them to be above board and by the book.  Tell them that in doing so this could help them stop the trail of tears.

 

P.S. - Are you still CC of both troop and crew? If so, you need to call Miss Crew Advisor and get her opinion as well.


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#17 MtnScouter

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 03:52 PM

The problem is that the SM and his family have too much power on the troop. Other poeple have come in and tried to get involved but they get run off. We had an ex-military guy as the ASM for a spell, but our SM and him couldn't stand one another. At one point the SM's kid accused the ASM of hitting his own child; so I had to suspend him while there was investigation. I mean, basically the whole thing is a ******* sideshow. I had pulled my kid out and traded troops before, but my teenager just hated me for since he has friends in this troop. And this SM does do a load of outings, which is good. But the guy himself is a wreck.

Right now the leadership team is:

SM: "Smith Family Son"

Crew Leader: "Smith Family "Daughter""
ACL: Someone else.

Person highly involved: "Smith Family Mother"
Other person highly involved: "Smith Family Father"

And these "Smiths" have a way of just running off other people who want to help. They are highly disorganized. They show up late to everything, up to an hour late for outings. It's a wreck. But there's not anyone who can take it over because they have prevented others from giving quality time, they hold all the reigns. Look, it's a cluster. The only reason I'm involved is because my kid insists on going. And now I'm staring down this problem of the "Smiths" just doing whatever. They do not, and have not, ever done what the committee suggests, nor do they seemingly ever follow Scout procedures as related to Troop Hierarchy. They just do whatever they like whenever they like. And, honest to God, I just want to let them do whatever and not worry about it. But my kid insists he go, and I'm the committee chair, so I stick around.

 

The below quote from another quote elsewhere and so on and so forth, won't fix your dilemma, but, it will make you laugh, maybe even feel better, and in shed light too! 

 

Moose Turd Pie

 

"The worst job I ever had was working for the Pacific Railroad, doing a thing called "gandy-dancing." Now most of you know the railroad was built partially by Irish labor. Well, back then the workers would use this long handled shovel, made by the Gandy Shovel Company of Great Neck New York. Well, they'd shove one end of the shovel under a railroad tie, and then run out to the other end of the shovel, when they could find it, and do a little jig on it, and they called it "gandy-dancin'". This would lift the tie up so they could shove gravel under it, which would level the roadbed, so when the train came along, it wouldn't tip over, which would be a real drag for everyone.

 

Well, nowadays, they run three cars out on the rail: a bunk car, an equipment car, and a mess car. The only thing they don't give you is a cook. The bosses figure you'll find out who the best cook is, and use him. Well, they were wrong. Y'see, they just find out who complains the loudest about the cooking, and he gets to be the cook. Well, that was me, see. Ol' aligator mouth. That was the worst food I'd ever had, and I complained about it. Things like "dog bottom pie" and "pheasant sweat." I thought it was garbage. So I complained. And everyone said, "alright, you think you can do better? You're the cook." Well, that made me mad, see? But I knew, that anyone who complained about my cooking, they were gonna have to cook.

 

Armed with that knowledge, I sallied forth, over the muddy river. I was walking along, and I saw just this hell of a big moose turd, I mean it was a real steamer! So I said to myself, "self, we're going to make us some moose turd pie." So I tipped that prairie pastry on its side, got my "stuff" together, so to speak, and started rolling it down towards the cook car: flolump, flolump, flolump. I went in and made a big pie shell, and then I tipped that meadow muffin into it, laid strips of dough across it, and put a sprig of parsley on top. It was beautiful, poetry on a plate, and I served it up for dessert.

Well, this big guy come into the mess car, I mean, he's about 5 foot forty, and he sets himself down like a fool on a stool, picked up a fork and took a big bite of that moose turd pie. Well he threw down his fork and he let out a bellow, "My God, that's moose turd pie!"

"It's good though."


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#18 Beavah

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 03:58 PM

Right now the leadership team is:

SM: "Smith Family Son"

Crew Leader: "Smith Family "Daughter""
ACL: Someone else.

Person highly involved: "Smith Family Mother"
Other person highly involved: "Smith Family Father"

 

Yah, hmmmm...

 

Well, I suspected there might be a backstory, eh? :confused:

 

I"m curious, is the daughter the crew Advisor (adult leader)?  Or the crew President (youth leader)?

 

One of da laws of human endeavor is that those who do the work control the outcome, eh?   As long as da Smiths are the only ones doin' the work, they're goin' to control things.  Even if da CO stepped in and showed 'em the door, odds are the kids and other families would be like your boy, eh?  They'd follow the Smiths out the door.

 

These sorts of snarls can be very difficult to unsnarl.   I'd say give a call to your Council Commissioner, eh?  Not your Unit Commissioner or even da District Commish.  Ask him or her for help.   Suggest that you can help set up a meetin' with da COR and IH.   Say you'll leave it up to him whether to include da Scout Executive or his assistant (not the DE, the Scout Executive for da council).   Lay out the situation and the concerns at the meeting.

 

Unit volunteers are volunteers for da Chartered Organization, not the BSA.  It's up to the Chartered Organization to make any decisions, and the BSA will back the CO.   If the CO wants to keep the unit, then it gets to keep the unit... and make decisions on who da unit leaders are.   Since da Smiths are members of the CO, there's also a pastoral role for the Church in providin' guidance to the family.

 

In the end, though, he who does the work controls the outcome.   Unless da COR/IH are willin' to assert their rights, the Smiths will do as they please.  Unless you are ready to step up and at a meetin' of all the parents explain that the Smiths have been removed and have a plan and the necessary volunteers to move forward, yeh won't see a change of leadership.  

 

So yeh have to decide what it is yeh want to do, and what yeh think is best for the boys and the program.   That's why they gave you the big bucks as CC!

 

[as an aside, what church are we talkin' about, and what's their position on transgendered folks?  The church may wish to make a change on that basis for its own reasons.]

 

Beavah


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#19 Beavah

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 04:15 PM

Sorry, unit health and execution of the charter agreement is not a core component of their job? Since when?

 

Since forever, eh?   What you're tryin' to describe is da role of da Commissioner Corps, not da pros.

 

Not sure which item yeh think this falls under in da DE's job description.   Maybe Popcorn? :)   Yah, yah, yeh can imagine some vague connection to Chartered Org support, but did yeh actually read the expectation?  Visit da COR annually.  Make a plan to provide more support for the comin' year.   Nuthin' much more than that, and we all know that Chartered Org. visits are one of da things that DEs honor more in the breach, eh? :p

 

The connection to the professional staff is that only the SE can remove an adult leader from Scouting (usually after or in concert with da CO removin' 'em from the unit).  That's why I suggested movin' straight to the Council Commish and SE, eh?   Most UCs aren't really equipped for this sort of thing, and a lot of DCs aren't either.  Almost no DEs will have a clue.

 

Beavah

 


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#20 Krampus

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 04:29 PM

Since forever, eh?   What you're tryin' to describe is da role of da Commissioner Corps, not da pros.

 

Not sure which item yeh think this falls under in da DE's job description.   Maybe Popcorn? :)   Yah, yah, yeh can imagine some vague connection to Chartered Org support, but did yeh actually read the expectation?  Visit da COR annually.  Make a plan to provide more support for the comin' year.   Nuthin' much more than that, and we all know that Chartered Org. visits are one of da things that DEs honor more in the breach, eh? :p

 

The connection to the professional staff is that only the SE can remove an adult leader from Scouting (usually after or in concert with da CO removin' 'em from the unit).  That's why I suggested movin' straight to the Council Commish and SE, eh?   Most UCs aren't really equipped for this sort of thing, and a lot of DCs aren't either.  Almost no DEs will have a clue.

 

Beavah

 

Sorry @Beavah, but do they teach reading in your neck of the woods?

 

I clearly posted a DE's job description. If one bothered they could google the search terms and find several dozen DE job descriptions, a vast majority of which CLEARLY put this issue within the domain of the DE. At very least, it requires the DE to maintain relations with the unit volunteer leads and report any serious violations of BSA policies to the council.

 

No offense, but you really should try reading what people write, taking a moment to digest it and then writing your folksy wisdom. Like I said, if you read the first paragraph of that one job description of a DE it provides for them to get involved to stop what is going on AND bring in other parties.


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