Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

Positions of Responsibility

boy scouting advancement

  • Please log in to reply
126 replies to this topic

#1 John-in-KC

John-in-KC

    Moderator and nice guy

  • Moderators
  • 6762 posts

Posted 07 May 2016 - 10:57 AM

From Bryan on Scouting.

For your reading and consideration.
  • 0

#2 qwazse

qwazse

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6204 posts

Posted 07 May 2016 - 11:50 AM

We currently have a glut of boys working on Star or Life, so service projects are a viable option. However, lining them up is not always easy.

I needed a scout to run point for our district flag placement that our troop and crew holds. My usual venturers who run this weren't available. The SM said he had just the boy (introverted, does web stuff, ideal for a behind-the-scenes support project like this), so I asked around for him at the next meeting. He wasn't there, time was running short, so I fell back to one of the older boys who already had a POR, didn't care much about advancement, but did want to get more involved with the crew.

The next week I apologized to the SM for passing over his guy. He replied "the first step in being responsible is showing up at meetings to get your assignment!" If the kid was present even that next week, I would have divide up some duties for him to still make a significant contribution to the event (and make a new friend by working with my venturer in the process). But, it didn't happen.
  • 0

#3 Hedgehog

Hedgehog

    Erinaceomorpha Erinaceidae Member

  • Members
  • 673 posts

Posted 08 May 2016 - 09:17 AM

So if the Patrol is the basic operating structure of scouting, why is the Assistant Patrol Leader not a position of responsibility?  As for that, why aren't any patrol leadership positions other that Patrol Leader positions of responsibility?

 

This leads to the silliness of having our Assistant Patrol Leaders being designated as Troop Guides and our Patrol Quartermasters being designated as Troop Quartmasters.  

 

We should just get over the idea of the title ("serve" in a "position of responsibility") and reward scouts by changing the requirement to "Show leadership and/or responsibiity as a member of your Patrol."  


  • 1

#4 Krampus

Krampus

    Side Kick to Nikolaus

  • Members
  • 1870 posts

Posted 08 May 2016 - 09:24 AM

APLs are like vice presidents...you never know they are there until you look on a roster. ;)


  • 0

#5 Hedgehog

Hedgehog

    Erinaceomorpha Erinaceidae Member

  • Members
  • 673 posts

Posted 08 May 2016 - 09:59 AM

APLs are like vice presidents...you never know they are there until you look on a roster. ;)

 

 

Well, for two of our APLs they are pretty much doing all the work... the other two, well, I had to ask my son who they are.  Additionally, your criticism could similarly be applied to the ASPL.


  • 0

#6 Stosh

Stosh

    BSA Heretic

  • Members
  • 11729 posts

Posted 08 May 2016 - 12:43 PM

Probably because most people have no idea what an APL is supposed to do. Most of the time they sit around doing nothing until the PL doesn't show up. They are a total waste of time. But if they function as an assistant to the PL they should get credit for it. Same with the ASPL, that POR is the same waste of time in most units I have seen. In troops of 8 or less, the patrol QM is the Troop QM. Sometimes the patrol QM does more work than the troop QM. When it comes to the BSA sometimes the rules don't make sense....in case one didn't notice.
  • 1

Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#7 TAHAWK

TAHAWK

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2705 posts

Posted 08 May 2016 - 12:53 PM

"So if the Patrol is the basic operating structure of scouting, why is the Assistant Patrol Leader not a position of responsibility?  As for that, why aren't any patrol leadership positions other that Patrol Leader positions of rsponsibility?"

 

"APLs are like vice presidents...you never know they are there until you look on a roster."

 

Same explanation, some folks have misplaced the Patrol Method.

 

Or, putting it another way, "Probably because most people have no idea what an APL is supposed to do."

 

The APL is assistant leader of the basic unit of Scouting - far more important to real Scouting than most official PORs, which make sense in the Troop Method world.


Edited by TAHAWK, 08 May 2016 - 12:53 PM.

  • 1

#8 qwazse

qwazse

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6204 posts

Posted 08 May 2016 - 04:14 PM

It seems to me that the responsibilities that can be applied to advancement come at a time when we expect a boy to think more widely than the eight boys with whom they've been hiking and camping over the past year or two.

That's true of the PL. He's not to just qualify to take his patrol hiking and camping, he's to coordinate activities with the other patrols. That is definitely not the expectation of the APL (although we all expect him to grow into that outward-looking attitude).

Same for the troop QM ... especially the one with highly functioning patrols and their respective QMs. He has to navigate the waters of multiple patrols. Maybe the Wolves have the best camp box, but the Bears have urgently need such gear. No longer is this a matter of checking out equipment from some troop storehouse, but enabling "haves" to help "have nots" with an appropriate level of accountability. And so it goes with the other responsibilities.

Edited by qwazse, 08 May 2016 - 04:17 PM.

  • 0

#9 Krampus

Krampus

    Side Kick to Nikolaus

  • Members
  • 1870 posts

Posted 09 May 2016 - 08:55 AM

Well, for two of our APLs they are pretty much doing all the work... the other two, well, I had to ask my son who they are.  Additionally, your criticism could similarly be applied to the ASPL.

 

Sure. I can be applied any time you have "assistants" stepping up to take over for absent primaries. But that is a totally different issue then giving APLs credit for a POR. I would argue if I have an APL being PL most of the time, then the PL is not getting POR credit and the APL will get de facto PL credit for fulfilling the role.


  • 0

#10 Tampa Turtle

Tampa Turtle

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2456 posts

Posted 09 May 2016 - 10:40 AM

Our Troop typically has two ASPL's--typically one who is the manager of the other Troop POR's and the other who is more of a leader type that often steps in when the SPL cannot be there or the Troop gets split up. I'd say 70% of our ASPL's have done a pretty good job.


  • 0

#11 Eagledad

Eagledad

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 5765 posts

Posted 09 May 2016 - 11:09 AM

We believe that "ALL" positions from the least responsible like the Cheer Master to highest perceived responsibility of the SPL should have understood expectations that the scout can easily quote. The positions also have a hierarchical order to show their expectation of maturity for the position so the scout understands the difficulty of the position and can plan how to grow in maturity with each position. If a scouts plans to be an SPL one day, he can look at the order of responsibilities toward reaching the position.

 

Of course nothing is in stone and some scouts are smarter than others, but those understandings give the adults and scouts a general idea of where are in the order and where they can go for continued maturity and growth. If your troop doesn't have expectations for positions, create them so scouts understand what is expected of them and how to plan for their future. 

 

Barry


  • 0

"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#12 Stosh

Stosh

    BSA Heretic

  • Members
  • 11729 posts

Posted 10 May 2016 - 08:30 AM

In my troops the APL's are not just a patch wearing opportunity for no advancement. 

 

While I do not actively promote an SPL, the boys did place them when they needed one once they reached 4 patrols.  Of course, none of the boys wanted to give up their PL positions because in the units I serve as SM, the PL's are the highest ranking position.  So who got picked as SPL?  Well the qualification list consisted of who has the best track record of supporting the PL's already?  Instead of a boy assisting the PL with members of a patrol, this person would simply assist the PL's with the adults.  The SPL that was selected was the consensus of the PL's best APL.  It was interesting to note that when a PL was replaced the first person the patrol would look to was the SPL to be their PL.  Only once was a SPL selected by the PL's who wasn't an APL.

 

I have, at the request of the PL's, given POR credit to their exceptional APL's as a SM's special leadership project.  All my POR's are functional, including GrubMasters and ActvityMasters.


  • 0

Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#13 Krampus

Krampus

    Side Kick to Nikolaus

  • Members
  • 1870 posts

Posted 10 May 2016 - 08:33 AM

In my troops the APL's are not just a patch wearing opportunity for no advancement. 

 

 

@Stosh, so you give POR credit for APL?


  • 0

#14 Stosh

Stosh

    BSA Heretic

  • Members
  • 11729 posts

Posted 10 May 2016 - 08:52 AM

@Stosh, so you give POR credit for APL?

 

As a general rule, No.  But at the request of the PL, I have given POR credit to a scout having done a SM-approved special leadership project.

 

While a First Class Scout, serve actively in your troop for four months in
one or more of the following positions of responsibility (or carry out a
Scoutmaster-approved leadership project to help the troop):
 
4
Assistant patrol leader is not an approved position of responsibility for the Star rank.
 

So, NO, I do not give POR credit for APL.  I give credit for SM-approved leadership projects.

 

I do tend to feel that by using the patrol method, that whatever leadership development one provides on the patrol level will eventually benefit the troop.  As I have noted in other comments with the exception of one time, the SPL's have been PL selected from the position of APL.   

 

@Krampus There are two exceptions to this. 1) Being APL does not mean it is automatically approved for POR, only if the recommending PL feels the APL has functioned at a level worthy of a leadership project and with the support demonstrated in assisting the PL in working with the patrol would be capable of doing the same support by assisting the PL as SPL if called upon to do so.  And 2) It would not apply to the Eagle rank because the special leadership project  option is not available.

 

While it sounds like a real bending of the rules, it is not as easy as one thinks, but on a couple of occasions the PL's have gone to bat for their exceptional APL's who they thought deserved the credit for the work they did.  Keep it in mind that when the POR is checked off on advancement by the PL, the SM-Approved part must be addressed with the SM.  The PL always has a compelling case for such a request.


  • 0

Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#15 Krampus

Krampus

    Side Kick to Nikolaus

  • Members
  • 1870 posts

Posted 10 May 2016 - 09:01 AM

So, NO, I do not give POR credit for APL.  I give credit for SM-approved leadership projects.
 
I do tend to feel that by using the patrol method, that whatever leadership development one provides on the patrol level will eventually benefit the troop.  As I have noted in other comments with the exception of one time, the SPL's have been PL selected from the position of APL.   
 
@Krampus There are two exceptions to this. 1) Being APL does not mean it is automatically approved for POR, only if the recommending PL feels the APL has functioned at a level worthy of a leadership project and with the support demonstrated in assisting the PL in working with the patrol would be capable of doing the same support by assisting the PL as SPL if called upon to do so.  And 2) It would not apply to the Eagle rank because the special leadership project  option is not available.
 
While it sounds like a real bending of the rules, it is not as easy as one thinks, but on a couple of occasions the PL's have gone to bat for their exceptional APL's who they thought deserved the credit for the work they did.  Keep it in mind that when the POR is checked off on advancement by the PL, the SM-Approved part must be addressed with the SM.  The PL always has a compelling case for such a request.


That's a pretty liberal reading of the leadership project's intent. I'm pretty certain they meant to award POR credit for an actual project with a defined role, objective and deliverable...and not give it to a kid exercising the patrol method.
  • 0

#16 Stosh

Stosh

    BSA Heretic

  • Members
  • 11729 posts

Posted 10 May 2016 - 09:27 AM

That's a pretty liberal reading of the leadership project's intent. I'm pretty certain they meant to award POR credit for an actual project with a defined role, objective and deliverable...and not give it to a kid exercising the patrol method.

 

Explain to me now the APL working as the PL's right hand man, making sure everything is running smoothly for the PL's relationship  to the patrol members is any different than the SPL working as the PL's left hand man, making sure everything is running smoothly for the PL's relationship to the adults.  This is why I have no problem with it being a troop project.

 

If the boy goes into the APL position, just sits on his hands waiting around for the PL to not show up for some activity and then stumbles around not knowing what's going on in the patrol, then there is no way on God's green earth he's getting credit for the project.  But if he is working hand in hand with the PL, learning how to work the relationships between the PL and each patrol member, is knowledgeable of every detail necessary to help make things run smoothly, and is capable to of shifting those dynamics at any moment to working the relationships between the PL and each adult leader as SPL, then I would have a difficult time denying the boy leadership project credit.  That is the project!

 

Is the Eagle project to demonstrate leadership or manage a service project for an outside organization?

 

For me the role, objective and deliverable for PL (patrol method structure), SPL (PL support of the patrol method structure between the patrols), APL (PL support of the patrol method structure within the patrol), TG (patrol method structure orientation for the new boys), is all the same.  I view my "troop" not as a troop but as a grouping of individual patrols.  The only thing we do as a troop is flags, but the boys do so as a patrol.  Even traveling to and from scout activities is done as a patrol.

 

In reality the ASP generally does more work than the SPL and TG and sometimes more than the PL who he is working for.  He is a true assistant and if anyone wants to talk to the boss of any major corporation, they have to first get by the administrative assistant,  They are the people in the real leadership position.  :)


  • 0

Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#17 meyerc13

meyerc13

    Roundtable Commissioner

  • Members
  • 271 posts

Posted 10 May 2016 - 09:35 AM

So if the Patrol is the basic operating structure of scouting, why is the Assistant Patrol Leader not a position of responsibility?  As for that, why aren't any patrol leadership positions other that Patrol Leader positions of responsibility?

 

This leads to the silliness of having our Assistant Patrol Leaders being designated as Troop Guides and our Patrol Quartermasters being designated as Troop Quartmasters.  

 

We should just get over the idea of the title ("serve" in a "position of responsibility") and reward scouts by changing the requirement to "Show leadership and/or responsibiity as a member of your Patrol."  

 

I think this is yet another area where the BSA has missed the mark on Patrol Method.  As you have pointed out, the 'work-around' is that the BSA allows multiple Troop Quartermasters, so the Patrol Quartermasters also function as Troop Quartermasters, and the problem is solved.  Only the Assistant Patrol Leaders are left without a good option, and I think Stosh has showed us that there is a work-around even for that.

 

I think the real question is why any role with a patch on the left sleeve is excluded from POR?  I think the BSA intent is that the role be one that accomplishes something significant... so they limit which roles count.  Instead, perhaps they should leave it up to the discretion of the unit on whether a boy has fulfilled the role in which he is serving.


  • 1

Yours in Scouting,

 

Chris Meyer

 

Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner 2015-Present

Lion Guide 2016-Present

Cubmaster 2013-2016

Father of a Boy Scout 2016-Present

 


#18 Krampus

Krampus

    Side Kick to Nikolaus

  • Members
  • 1870 posts

Posted 10 May 2016 - 10:08 AM

Explain to me now the APL working as the PL's right hand man, making sure everything is running smoothly for the PL's relationship  to the patrol members is any different than the SPL working as the PL's left hand man, making sure everything is running smoothly for the PL's relationship to the adults.  This is why I have no problem with it being a troop project.

 

 

A project is usually something that has a timeline, set of expectations and objectives with a defined outcome which is usually a tangible asset. It is meant to be something a Scout can do that otherwise would not be able to hold a POR. It is not meant to be a POR work around.

 

By giving project credit for what is essentially the APL's role anyway, you are just playing nuances with the whole project concept. I always applaud when someone can fill in the grey BSA likes to create with creative problem solving, but this is hard to overlook even by my liberal reading of certain standards. ;)


  • 0

#19 Stosh

Stosh

    BSA Heretic

  • Members
  • 11729 posts

Posted 10 May 2016 - 10:24 AM

A project is usually something that has a timeline, 4 months for Star and 6 months for Life set of expectations Assist the PL just like the ASPL assists the SPL and the ASM's assist the SM and objectives with a defined outcome which is usually a tangible asset. usually, but not always.  The outcome I am looking for would be, "did the APL perform at a level that stood out as exemplary in the eyes of the PL enough he would recommend it to the SM for approval?"  It is meant to be something a Scout can do that otherwise would not be able to hold a POR. It is not meant to be a POR work around.

 

By giving project credit for what is essentially the APL's role anyway, you are just playing nuances with the whole project concept. I always applaud when someone can fill in the grey BSA likes to create with creative problem solving, but this is hard to overlook even by my liberal reading of certain standards. ;)

 

In all seriousness, the PL signs off on the advancement of all his patrol members, but because of the SM-approval necessary for the POR the APL has had to do some pretty impressive work to have the PL come forward and ask for that approval.  The validation and documentation necessary along with even references from patrol members... made it difficult for me to say no.  We aren't talking about helping your buddy get by on the requirement.

 

The Catch-22 occurs when no one wants to be APL because they don't get POR credit and the SPL's tend to get picked from the good APL's.  So when a boy steps into the APL position and busts his butt and takes a pass on rank advancement for Star and Life, that seems like a major injustice and the boys all know it.

 

But as we have all been taught by the BSA, APL is a worthless POR, but the boys need a piece of bling on their shirt while they sit around on their hands waiting for the PL to not show up.

 

On occasion I have had a APL turn that position into an art-form and have done some really impressive work and I for one if the PL requests it will not stand in the way.

 

:)


Edited by Stosh, 10 May 2016 - 10:25 AM.

  • 0

Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#20 Krampus

Krampus

    Side Kick to Nikolaus

  • Members
  • 1870 posts

Posted 10 May 2016 - 10:27 AM

@Stosh, you are still giving credit for the APL doing his job. That's not a project, that's a role...and a role defined by BSA as not being worthy of a POR. You slice it pretty finely, but in the end you are giving the APL POR credit for doing nothing more than his job. That's not a project.

 

EDIT: Now if the kid does something like build an Instructor's Manual, creates a new service project (or leads one) or something substantially outside the role of an APL, then heck yeah, give him credit.


Edited by Krampus, 10 May 2016 - 10:28 AM.

  • 0





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: boy scouting, advancement

2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users


IPB Skin By Virteq