" When the TG came for his SMC there would be no check off for POR or for Scout Spirit on my watch."
Seriously? Being appointed TG means he is IPOs facto not meeting the expectations for that post ?
Seriously? With everything I have said about boy-led, one concludes that the TG is appointed? By whom? Only for a brief time did either of my troops have an SPL to appoint, so I'm assuming that others are assuming the SM appoints? Nope, not gonna take the fall for someone else's decision.
My "structure" that everyone raves needs to be established by adult directive is not necessary. I simply go back to the basic patrol-method concept and the patrols and their structure are automatically established by the boys. 6 to 8 boys one of them the "leader" i.e. PL. From there they expand as needed and as training suggests might be helpful in the operation of the patrol, leadership expands as does teamwork.
Little overwhelming being alone as PL, maybe working with an APL would help? Got too much paperwork? Maybe a Scribe would help. Don't know where to find things easily? Maybe a QM would help.
Don't know what those POR's are?, maybe some TLT or GBB leadership training would help, let me know if you're interested" The structure builds itself by the needs identified by the boys.
There's a lot of talk about troop elections, my troops have never had a "troop" election. Everything is decided on at the patrol level. Lots of talk about PLC's. Briefly at the time of the SPL, the boys started one, do the PL's gather to share notes. Up until then, the "PLC" issues are handled with a phone call or quick discussion among the PL's. That happened only after there were 4 PL's and they felt the need to have any structure to their meeting and tried an SPL.
So lets look and see where the TG comes from. He volunteers. He isn't appointed, elected, or selected. He just starts doing the job. As long as he does his job of taking care of the new boys he's fulfilling his POR requirement. If he is being a "dictator" as the conversation was referring to earlier then he may think he's taking care of his boys, but do the boys think that?
Whereas the PL signs off on patrol member's advancement, who signs off on the PL's? The other PL's do. How about the TG?, QM?, Scribe?, etc.? Generally those receiving the leadership of those people have their opportunity for input. Generally the PL's defer the Scout Spirit and POR fulfillment to the SM. They have never felt comfortable with that and at their directive, I as SM support their decision. In the case of a dictatorial TG, the first person(s) I would inquire information from would be the people he is leading. I'm not going to not do what the PL's have asked me to do.
At a patrol gathering:
SM: Boys, your PL has asked me to talk to you about Johnny, your TG. How's he been doing?
Boys: He's bossy and demanding.
SM: Mr. PL is that true?
PL: Yes, I'm supposed to be leading the patrol but he kept making decisions without me and running the show.
SM: Why didn't anyone say something to me?
Boys: We were afraid.
SM: Mr. PL, why didn't you say something?
PL: I was afraid, too.
SM: But you're the PL. A Scout is Brave, and as a leader maybe it would be necessary to do brave thinks in order to take care of your boys. If the boys want you as PL, maybe some thinking about those things in that area might be helpful.
Then at the SMC:
SM: I visited with the patrol you were helping and they weren't all that happy.
TG: They wouldn't listen to me.
SM: Why would they, they're supposed to be listening to their PL.
TG: But I outrank him.
SM: Really? We all know that in this troop the PL's are the highest rank. The TG is there to help the new PL's, not run the show. Did you help or did you take over?
TG: I guess I took over.
SM: Well, then, do you think you did the job of TG for these guys?
TG: I guess not.
SM: And how about this part of the Scout Oath where it says "help other people at all times?" How's that working with you and the patrol?
TG: That's not good either.
SM: So, how are we going to sign off on these requirements then? Maybe more time to try it differently? Maybe try something other than TG? What do you think?.....
One either wins or they learn.
Not only is the PL under the spotlight for not speaking up earlier, but also the TG for not taking care of the boys and to a certain extent the members of the patrol for not speaking up. They had a problem, no one took leadership in dealing with it. It's not just the TG's fault, but the PL had a part in the problem as did all the boys.
So, is not signing off at this point on the Scout Spirit and POR for the TG a punishment or a learning opportunity?
In reality, as SM I would have noticed the demanding TG long before this and would have worked with him at his directive. If he didn't think he needed help or wouldn't pick up on the suggestions offered, then he's on his own. He's made a decision and I'll let him run with it. We're talking 12-15 year olds here. They have plenty of time to make Eagle. A little slip in timing to learn is not a big deal.
Then why did you appoint him TG? And what does being TG have to do with Scout Spirit? Stosh, get some sleep. You are obviously not an Owl.
No, I'm a Beaver, and I do what it takes to get the dam job done.
"All election cycles are adult driven because the adults give the scouts a structure to start from."
All "alls" are never correct.
I was with one troop for 25 years where the PLC decided the election cycles and position qualifications. Sometimes they liked six months. Mostly, they liked a year on the theory that six months barely have a new PL time to get settled in.
Having noted those facts, the leader is whoever is leading, regardless of titles. or ages The SPL and SM have to watch for that factor and try to shape a rational result. Always.
In my troops the SPL and SM are both in the supporting role to the PL who's directing the patrol-method in the troop. They don't shape anything, they take their cues from the PL's.