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Scoutmaster denies 17 year old Life Scout Eagle


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#21 perdidochas

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 03:30 PM

I have a certain youth that was active early on and got busy with sports/band and is now doing his Eagle Project.  I have seen him on 1 campout in the last 2 years and I have seen him at a handful of meeting the last year.  I am really hoping NOT to be asked to be on his EBOR!

Was he active for 6 months after Life?


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#22 Stosh

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 03:42 PM

Hiya SSF!

 

Yah, lots of adult drama there, eh?

 

I've got a question for yeh.   What is it that you want for your son as a parent?

 

Lots of times as parents we get a little too involved in da trees and drama of our teenagers, eh?   Yeh can usually tell you've hit that point when yeh start talkin' about bein' able to write small novels about their current dust-up with their teacher/coach/scoutmaster.

 

Take a step back and look at the forest and what your real goals for the lad are.  Is your goal really an Eagle award?  Or is your goal the life lessons that come from Scouting and working and doing things in Scouting?

 

So first, I'd say "Let your son handle his own problems".  He's almost an adult and I assume next year he's goin' to have to deal with meeting the requirements of college and da demands of persnickety professors all on his own, eh?  Or maybe he's goin' off to military service or to a job where the same will be true.   Let Scouting be what it was designed to be - good practice for the world.   Without mom or dad gettin' caught up in da drama.  Sometimes we all have to deal with a difficult boss.

 

Second, pause for a moment and consider whether the SM and the committee and the other adult leaders (and perhaps some of the youth leaders, and...) don't have a bit of a point.   If a fellow in your job got a big award even though he'd really not been around very much at all, and both management and coworkers felt he really wasn't committed, how would that make yeh feel?  

 

Third, where do yeh stand on the sort of character you're tryin' to develop in your son?   Do yeh want him to lawyer his way through things by quibblin' with the letter of the law, or do yeh want other things from him?    No disrespect for lawyers, of course, since I happen to be partial to 'em myself.

 

I can't say anything about da merits or lack of merits of your son's Eagle application from afar.   I can say that as parents how we choose to allow our kids to deal with setbacks and the example we set in terms of bein' calm, and respectful of folks who've given their time and treasure to our kids as volunteers - that example means a lot.   Those are the things that teach real lessons that support our kids for a lifetime. 

 

Beavah

 

@Beavah  !

 

So after a 2+ year hiatus you think you can just come waltzing back in here and walk away with the Grand Prix?  I would say that from all accounts here, your absence at the campfire has been about 0%, the big threads?  No participation ribbon for you!

 

So, where does that leave us, Young Man?

 

Sitting here seriously thinking it's great to see you back on the forum! 

 

Welcome back, we missed you!


Edited by Stosh, 13 April 2016 - 03:43 PM.

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#23 JasonG172

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 03:47 PM

Was he active for 6 months after Life?

Registered and pays dues but that's been it after Life.  No Camporee or Summer Camp


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#24 Krampus

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 03:59 PM

Was he active for 6 months after Life?

 

 

Registered and pays dues but that's been it after Life.  No Camporee or Summer Camp

 

But that's not how the "active participation" section reads (it is not just being active of 6 months while Life). You can have an active Life Scout at 14 who get Life at 13, puts in his six months of "activity" and then disappears until 17. Is he really "active" in the unit? Nope. Does the unit have an "active" level established? If so and he is not meeting it he's out of luck.

 

The GTA is pretty clear on what is done here. If the unit has not stated active level policy then he's within his rights to use the alternate test.


Edited by Krampus, 13 April 2016 - 04:00 PM.

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#25 Stosh

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 04:29 PM

But that's not how the "active participation" section reads (it is not just being active of 6 months while Life). You can have an active Life Scout at 14 who get Life at 13, puts in his six months of "activity" and then disappears until 17. Is he really "active" in the unit? Nope. Does the unit have an "active" level established? If so and he is not meeting it he's out of luck.

 

The GTA is pretty clear on what is done here. If the unit has not stated active level policy then he's within his rights to use the alternate test.

How is this any different than the 14 year old Eagle that disappears the day after the ECOH? 


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#26 Krampus

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 04:52 PM

How is this any different than the 14 year old Eagle that disappears the day after the ECOH? 

 

It isn't. 

 

Of course, in most units that are executing the program right, you don't have 14 year old Eagles and few Scouts ever disappear.


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#27 Stosh

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 08:05 PM

It isn't. 

 

Of course, in most units that are executing the program right, you don't have 14 year old Eagles and few Scouts ever disappear.

 

I think you have overly assumed.  Most of our early ranked Eagles get JASM, then bored to death because they can't be involved the way they used to and mature out by 15 or 16.  The fun and adventure is gone.


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#28 MattR

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 08:59 PM

Or maybe, Stosh, they're just very organized and motivated until they get their eagle. I have a 14 year old eagle scout, one of maybe 4 in the history of the troop, that really was good until he got eagle. It's not that he's bored because there's nothing to do, it's that nobody is holding anything over him to motivate him. Nobody is saying I bet you can't do this. Getting Eagle was the challenge, and there was nothing he did wrong. There was no way I could have stopped him and yet I knew this would happen. This is why I think FCFY is a total crock. I have a group of 15-17 year old troop guides that are learning so much more than this scout, only because they are slower at getting to the leadership positions. Their laziness is serving them well.

 

When they're young they're motivated by bling. As they get older they get motivated by deeper things. Some day this scout will mature and figure it all out.


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#29 David CO

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 07:48 AM

Let's suppose for a moment that the boy succeeds in getting the council to overrule his unit and award him his eagle.  How would his unit react?

 

I would see it as an act of defiance and disloyalty to the unit. 


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#30 Beavah

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 07:50 AM


I would say that from all accounts here, your absence at the campfire has been about 0%, the big threads?  No participation ribbon for you!

 

Yah, for sure!   Guess I'm goin' to have to go on a few virtual campouts before I ask for signoff on Forum Spirit, eh?

 

Thanks for the kind words, Stosh.   Da forums were pretty broken for a while there, eh?    Then life happened in Beavah-land with some health issues for Mrs. B, so I've been away from the woods and trails for a bit.  Things settlin' down now, and all's well.

 

Scout on!


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#31 Hedgehog

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 07:54 AM

Let's suppose for a moment that the boy succeeds in getting the council to overrule his unit and award him his eagle.  How would his unit react?

 

I would see it as an act of defiance and disloyalty to the unit. 

 

 

Yet, from the sounds of it, the adults in the unit are being (and has been)  disloyal and NOT helpful to the scout.  You don't add requirements at the last minute to screw someone who has done everything required and deny them something they have worked for over the last 6 to 7 years.


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#32 Beavah

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 08:05 AM

 

IMHO, this is clearly one of the times to step in and turn an  unfair situation into a fair fight.

 

Yah, fred, I hear yeh.   I've even shared that sentiment at times.

 

I think da thing to ask ourselves is "if I'm viewin' things as a fight with other parents and volunteers, have I lost my way?"   Is that really da sort of character and citizenship I want to teach my boy?

 

We all have to answer that question for ourselves, I reckon.  Me personally, I think too many of da folks who are tryin' to call themselves "leaders" want to whip folks up for a fight against fellow citizens these days.  Seems to me leadership should be a more a calm, service-minded thing, and citizenship means sacrificin' some of what we want for the sake of da group.

 

So for me, if Junior didn't get an "A" that Junior though he deserved, that's junior's issue to deal with.   If junior's teacher is clearly harmin' lots of other boys and girls, then maybe that's on Mrs. Beavah and I to raise respectfully.  That's a decision to try to fire/replace da teacher, though, eh?  Not to get my kid an "A".


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#33 Krampus

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 08:24 AM

Let's suppose for a moment that the boy succeeds in getting the council to overrule his unit and award him his eagle.  How would his unit react?

 

I would see it as an act of defiance and disloyalty to the unit. 

 

Really? You have adults violate half a dozen BSA policies here and you'd hold it against the Scout for going to council to arbitrate? 

 

The clock is ticking on this kid and rather than being helpful -- of God forbid, proactive -- the adults here breaking several rules just to flex their tiny little muscles. Please!

 

Where is the adult's loyalty to this Life Scout? Huh?

 

Yet, from the sounds of it, the adults in the unit are being (and has been)  disloyal and NOT helpful to the scout.  You don't add requirements at the last minute to screw someone who has done everything required and deny them something they have worked for over the last 6 to 7 years.

 

EXACTLY!!!!

 

Let's assume the adults are correct in their application of the "active participation" clause and there was an pre-established, well-documented troop activity level this Scout fell below. Shouldn't they (they adult leaders) have done their job and notified this kid that he's in jeopardy?

 

I am all for holding a Scout's feet to the fire, but you have to abide by the BSA rules and policies. Even when you (the adults) are in the right you need to think about the message you are sending if you dig in too deep. 

 

No argument, these adults are WAY off on this one. Cannot fathom anyone holding this against the Scout. Not in my unit!


Edited by Krampus, 14 April 2016 - 08:31 AM.

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#34 David CO

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 08:33 AM

Boys often ask me why I wasn't an eagle scout.  The answer is very simple.  I was a Lone Scout.  

 

I remember seeing a scene in a Cary Grant movie where the adopted son receives his award to the cheers of his troop.  I remember thinking that it must be a wonderful thing to be honored by your friends in that way.

 

Yes, as a Lone Scout, I could have earned the award.  But it wouldn't have been the same.  Something would have been missing.

 

I know that many people disagree with me.  They want the award any way they can get it.  If it means lawyer-ing up and going to council, so be it.


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#35 Krampus

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 08:44 AM

 

I know that many people disagree with me.  They want the award any way they can get it.  If it means lawyer-ing up and going to council, so be it.

 

To borrow a phrase from another thread, with all due respect that's a load of crappola.

 

The kid is not" lawyering up". He's reporting a SEVERE violation of BSA rules -- as outlined in the cited section of the GTA -- to his council for them to take action.

 

These adults are mucking with what is essentially this kid's life work so far. If he's spent 5 years in Cubs and 7 years in Boy Scouts, that's nearly 3/4 of his life spent toward this goal. He's reporting this abuse of power because it's wrong. He's reporting this abuse of power so that it does not happen to him or anyone else. He's reporting this abuse of power because it is the RIGHT THING to do.

 

Sorry you didn't get your Eagle. I walked away from mine of my own volition. But don't let your story of missed opportunity and some misplaced sense of loyalty to the unit cloud your perspective. THESE ADULTS ARE WRONG! Period! When they became disloyal to this Scout and violated BSA rules they broke the covenant of loyalty that bound this Scout to that unit.


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#36 David CO

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 09:24 AM

Please don't get me wrong, Krampus, I have never regretted my decision to not pursue the award.  I don't consider it a "missed opportunity."  

 

I think you're being just a little bit extreme when you describe the advancement program as a  " kids life work."


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#37 Krampus

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 09:32 AM

Please don't get me wrong, Krampus, I have never regretted my decision to not pursue the award.  I don't consider it a "missed opportunity."  

 

I think you're being just a little bit extreme when you describe the advancement program as a  " kids life work."

 

Really? How would YOU feel if someone was breaking established rules to take away something YOU worked 7 years for? What if it was YOUR kid?

 

I would say that if a 5 year old worked until 17 (12 years) to accomplish something, that could be considered his "life's work" up to that point.

 

It is certainly something that, if taken away by some silly adults, might influence him the rest of his life. So yeah, it's a big deal.


Edited by Krampus, 14 April 2016 - 09:33 AM.

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#38 David CO

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 10:00 AM

Anyone who has followed my posts on this site would already clearly know where I place my loyalty.  My loyalty is to the Chartered Organization.

 

Yes, I do think that many people exaggerate the importance of Scouting and its advancement program.  But they're not alone. The athletic program is also known to exaggerate its importance.  They often feel that sports is a kid's "life work."

 

I feel that it is the role of the Chartered Organization to moderate such views and help its youth members to develop a better sense of perspective as to what should be most important in their lives.

 

I have said it before.  Scouting is not the largest or the most important program in our organization.  Scouting is simply not that popular.


Edited by David CO, 14 April 2016 - 10:01 AM.

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#39 Krampus

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 10:35 AM

I have said it before.  Scouting is not the largest or the most important program in our organization.  Scouting is simply not that popular.

 

To YOU!!!

 

To this kid it might be EVERYTHING!!

 

Forget even that for a moment. I fail to see why you wouldn't be in this kid's corner when these adults are obviously breaking the rules and policies of BSA. Since your a CO champion, why wouldn't you be there, with COR in tow, to discuss with these adults why they are not abiding by the charter agreement the CO signed up for?

 

Instead you berate the kids for "lawyering up" by going to council calling him defiant and disloyal. That's unreal...especially for someone who professes his backing of the CO. The CO signed an agreement with BSA, shouldn't they honor it, stand behind THEIR members when some adults go rogue?

 

Not seeing your justification for blaming the kid for using the tools there for him when the CO seems to be failing him, as well as the adult leaders this CO should be managing.


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#40 perdidochas

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 10:41 AM

I think you have overly assumed.  Most of our early ranked Eagles get JASM, then bored to death because they can't be involved the way they used to and mature out by 15 or 16.  The fun and adventure is gone.

 

I've found the opposite to be true, but then again my sample size of Eagles under 17 in my unit is three, two of them being my sons. BOth have been actively involved, albeit not as involved as before, but that is due to competing activities, not boredom.

 

Let's suppose for a moment that the boy succeeds in getting the council to overrule his unit and award him his eagle.  How would his unit react?

 

I would see it as an act of defiance and disloyalty to the unit. 

 

I disagree.  I think in this case (if what we have read is true, and there aren't other circumstances), it's the SM that is being disloyal to the boy.  The boy is in his rights to be defiant. 


Edited by perdidochas, 14 April 2016 - 10:42 AM.

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