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BSA Program Planning web article jumps the rails


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#21 TAHAWK

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 01:00 PM

It takes a constant effort to insure that a large organization speaks with one voice.

The story goes that Bill was wont to read everything Scoutly and had no reluctance to point out internal conflicts (or errors) in BSA publications. That is one more reason that his Silver Buffalo Citation calls him the "Voice of Scouting."

In Bill's memory, I (again) point out that the BSA Complete Wilderness Training Manual by Hugh McManners, Metro Books, 2015, advocates on p. 32 use of the khukuri (more commonly and incorrectly the "kukri"). This is the short sword famously used by the Gurkhas as a weapon and chopping tool. It runs about two pounds and almost 1/2" think and can remove body parts even more readily than the axe.

I have rationalized that the khukuri escapes the G2SS discouragement of "large sheath knives" as it is a sword carried in a scabbard.

Edited by TAHAWK, 13 April 2016 - 01:01 PM.

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#22 RichardB

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 02:47 PM

Somewhat off topic but maybe you should review the Tools section of the Boy Scout Handbook 2016 version and the Guide to Safe Scouting on the whole knife issue.   

 

http://www.scouting....SS/gss08.aspx#f 


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#23 RememberSchiff

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 02:54 PM

Somewhat off topic but maybe you should review the Tools section of the Boy Scout Handbook 2016 version and the Guide to Safe Scouting on the whole knife issue.   

 

http://www.scouting....SS/gss08.aspx#f

Machetes are ok.


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#24 Krampus

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 03:01 PM

Machetes are ok.

 

...but not bubble ball. Go figure.


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#25 TAHAWK

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 04:04 PM

Somewhat off topic but maybe you should review the Tools section of the Boy Scout Handbook 2016 version and the Guide to Safe Scouting on the whole knife issue.   
 
http://www.scouting....SS/gss08.aspx#f


Right on topic: inconsistent messages.

The "large sheath knives" language went away from G2Ss in 2015 and the Handbook in 2016 - but remains in the Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders syllabus at Scouting.Org

IN 2008 BSA said in Boys' Life that The best type of knife for camping trips — and most any other outdoor activity, for that matter — is a short, fixed-blade knife with a beefy handle."

In 2011 BSA added these words to the G2SS: "We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility.

But where are the training materials on how to use, handle, and store a sheath knife? Not in the Handbook. Not in adult training materials. So we have an important safety-related "duty" but BSA gives no guidance on how to address that duty. The implicit message is inconsistent with the explicit message.

Meanwhile, we have an official BSA publication encouraging the use of khukuris.

Is it the END OF THE WORLD? No. But it's an issue I regularly see in training Scouters.

Clearer messages are more easily communicated and more credible.
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#26 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 05:07 PM

Right on topic: inconsistent messages.

The "large sheath knives" language went away from G2Ss in 2015 and the Handbook in 2016 - but remains in the Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders syllabus at Scouting.Org

IN 2008 BSA said in Boys' Life that The best type of knife for camping trips — and most any other outdoor activity, for that matter — is a short, fixed-blade knife with a beefy handle."

In 2011 BSA added these words to the G2SS: "We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility.

But where are the training materials on how to use, handle, and store a sheath knife? Not in the Handbook. Not in adult training materials. So we have an important safety-related "duty" but BSA gives no guidance on how to address that duty. The implicit message is inconsistent with the explicit message.

Meanwhile, we have an official BSA publication encouraging the use of khukuris.

Is it the END OF THE WORLD? No. But it's an issue I regularly see in training Scouters.

Clearer messages are more easily communicated and more credible.

 

AMEN!


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#27 Stosh

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 08:02 PM

It has always amazed me that so many adults grab their chests and gasp in horror whenever we talk about sheath knives,  They are dangerous!  They are unsafe, Boys haven't been trained in dealing with fixed blade knives.  And when all the smoke has settled the boys all go back to their campsites, dig around blindly in their chuck boxes for the unsheathed butcher knife and start hacking away at the potatoes for supper.  The guy next to him is wielding a fillet knife on the carrots because he couldn't find a paring knife, and on one thinks there's anything wrong with this picture.

 

If the Cubs are expected to put up a whittling yard and the Boy Scouts are to put up an ax yard, maybe someone ought to put up a kitchen yard so that 6"-8" knives have a proper place to be wielded. 


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#28 TAHAWK

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 08:15 PM

One camp said "No fixed-blade knives are allowed anywhere on the Reservation property."

Their "Trading Post," of course sold all manner of fixed-blade "cooking" knives - some in sheaths.
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#29 Stosh

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 08:42 PM

One camp said "No fixed-blade knives are allowed anywhere on the Reservation property."

Their "Trading Post," of course sold all manner of fixed-blade "cooking" knives - some in sheaths.

 

Oh, good, I'm glad we got that all cleared up.  So a fillet knife?  Is that a sheath knife or a food prep knife?  And seriously folks!  Why are we letting our boys put knives in the chuck boxes WITHOUT SHEATHES?  Next time they reach in to get a knife, they could seriously cut themselves.  THIS IS WHY I HAVE A KNIFE BLOCK ON MY COUNTER AND NO KNIVES IN DRAWERS!  What's the lesson here?


Edited by Stosh, 13 April 2016 - 08:43 PM.

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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#30 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 09:36 PM

All this talk about sheath knives, Why do I want this knife for bushcraft? :D

 


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#31 Hedgehog

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 06:36 AM

Somewhat off topic but maybe you should review the Tools section of the Boy Scout Handbook 2016 version and the Guide to Safe Scouting on the whole knife issue.   

 

http://www.scouting....SS/gss08.aspx#f

 

 

A knife with a CAN OPENER?  First off, the patrol cook boxes have can openers and nobody packs for a backcountry trip bringing cans of food.  Secondly, knives that have can openers are usually non-locking folders which are more dangerous (IMHO) than sheath knives because they can fold back on the scout's fingers when they are using them.  I regularly tell scouts and parents not to get the Swiss Army type knives because the blades aren't as sharp and you are carrying a lot more weight than you need to for all the gadgets.

 

We recently went to a scout camp.  After checking in, my son asked the Campmasters if there was any problem with the boys using sheath knives (I have a Ontario RD-7 and he has a Becker BK-9).  They said if it's not prohibited by BSA it is allowed at camp.  Son then asked if there was any problem with setting up a knife and tomahawk throwing station (we have sets of SOG throwing knives and tomahawks).  They said if it's not prohibited by BSA than it is allowed in camp. :D

 

Now I need to get a kuhkri to take to summer camp where sheath knives are banned. :p


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#32 TAHAWK

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 08:59 AM

Oh, good, I'm glad we got that all cleared up.  So a fillet knife?  Is that a sheath knife or a food prep knife?  And seriously folks!  Why are we letting our boys put knives in the chuck boxes WITHOUT SHEATHES?  Next time they reach in to get a knife, they could seriously cut themselves.  THIS IS WHY I HAVE A KNIFE BLOCK ON MY COUNTER AND NO KNIVES IN DRAWERS!  What's the lesson here?


One lesson is that those who create "zero tolerance" rules are typically not very knowledgeable. That got us "Flash suppressors EVIL. Compensators OK." and "Telescoping stock EVIL. Folding stocks OK."

Remember, HH, a khukuri is a sword in a scabbard, not a knife in a sheath. "Show me the rule about swords." (^___^)
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#33 TAHAWK

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 11:39 AM

GOOD NEWS:

 

The bizarre article on annual program planning that started this thread is GONE.

 

The longest journey begin with the first step, and this is not just the first.  We are returning to Boy Scouting.


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#34 NJCubScouter

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 09:19 AM

That's good news.  Let's hope that was intentional and that the page is not coming back.

 

As an aside, I like the BSA's "Page Not Found" page with the map and compass.  I never noticed that before.


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#35 Deaf Scouter

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 04:41 PM

I can lose that whole article in a heartbeat.   Boys will never find it on the internet and all this troop planning will ultimately get lost in the discussion of patrol planning and coordination between patrols.  The adults will never outnumber the boys because we only have the SM and the ASM and they are always off jaw-jacking while these kinds of calendar discussions are being held.

 

BOR's?  Whenever necessary.

COH's 5th meeting of the month

Troop Open House - when the Webelos show up.

Service Projects - as needed, scouting for food, neighborhood clean up - spring and fall, etc.

Cross-overs - Last week in June

Summer camp we set, district sets camporees, etc. and the monthly outings are whenever the boys can get away.  two this month, maybe none next.

 

This process usually takes us about 10 minutes every year to set up.  All the rest of the plans are done on a patrol basis.  The boys plan it and the adults get to go along for fun. 

 

My boys seem quite please with the way things seem to be working out.  Spring hike coming up next month along with a Webelos outing next month, maybe some hiking thing the following month Summer camp after that.  Jury is still out on that, only a couple of experienced boys the rest will be Webelos cross-overs and we may need to lean heavily on a mess hall camp this year.  Boys haven't confirmed what they want yet.

And I guess some one DID lose it, Stosh... *laughing
Mind must be elsewhere as I couldn't fully grasp your meaning until I tried the link...*smiles


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#36 fred johnson

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 01:07 PM

I am informed that the problems with the website article on programming will be corrected.

 

Good.  Sometimes BSA is it's own worst enemy.  I've seen it several times where someone winged it and wrote something that sounded nice but was not based in the BSA program.  That's what the originally posted web article sounds like.  Someone winged it without realizing there were key points and ideas on how a troop should do annual planning.  


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#37 TAHAWK

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 04:41 PM

Sorry if the thread is unclear.  The offending article is gone, removed by BSA from Scouting.org.


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