Question regarding "Scout Spirit" - is this being abused, or misused?

[SSF 57]

I have a question regarding the requirement, essentially required for all rank advancements, which indicates that a scout must demonstrate scout spirit and live by the scout oath and law in his everyday life.

 

My son was recently denied the opportunity to have his BOR because the troop committee had voted against granting him approval for "scout spirit."

 

My son is very well behaved, has no disciplinary issues whatsoever and does live by the scout oath and law, however, the SM cited specifically to my son that he was denied "scout spirit" because (according to the committee) he needed "one additional camping trip."

 

If my son's camping participation was in question, then the scoutmaster should have explained that clearly during the SM conference, rather than leave him with the impression that he would be having his BOR the following week. He takes his BORs very seriously and, all week, had been asking me about what kind of questions to expect. What kind of scoutmaster goes out of his way to set kids up for disappointment?

 

The SM claimed that it was "committee's vote," not his, however. I strongly suspect that the SM supported, encouraged and even guided this "vote."

 

My primary concern is that this troop committee and group of leaders are leveraging "scout spirit" as a subjective way of holding back any scouts who have otherwise appropriately met all requirements as outlined, but whom the SM and leaders, feel may be advancing too quickly.

 

My secondary concern is the fact that the scoutmaster ultimately set my son up for great disappointment.

 

The troop "active participation" requirements have never been clearly outlined.

 

To me, the requirement on scout spirit and living by the scout oath and law seems quite clear, and  again, I feel that the SM, troop committee and adult leadership in our troop are abusing this requirement as a subjective 'tool' to hold back scouts who have otherwise rightfully earned their rank.

[Stosh 3452]

Was the requirement for number of activities/camping nights signed off?  If that be true, what ADDITIONAL campout is he talking about?  Once that's cleared up you will probably know what the real reason for the hassle is all about.  If all the requirements are checked off except BOR and Scout Spirit, then the SM is jerking your son around and that should be brought to the committee's attention.

[Sentinel947 1205]

Unfortunately this happens more often than it should. You may not like my answer. 

For first class: 

Since joining, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities, six of which include overnight camping. These 10 activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On at least five of the six campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect (such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee).

It is possible (since you didn't mention the rank) that your son didn't meet this requirement. 

 

For Star, Life and Eagle:

"Be active in your troop for (four months for star, 6 for life and eagle) while (previous rank) 

 

These are the appropriate places to deal with a Scout and his attendance on outings. However, the scoutmaster has to be making a clear and consistent policy as what counts as "active" 

Scout Spirit is about the Oath and Law, attendance is dealt with in other requirements. On that basis the BOR is out of line, and maybe the SM. 

 

Page 25-26 of this document outlines Scout Spirit http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

Your options are to bring this up to the Committee Chair, complain to your council, or find a different troop. 

Best of luck to you. 
 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Sentinel947

[CalicoPenn 729]

This has absolutely nothing to do with Scout Spirit.  Here's a direct quote from the BSA's own advancement guide:

 

We can say, however, that we do not measure Scout

spirit by counting meetings and outings attended. It is

indicated, instead, by the way he lives his life.

 

 

 If, in fact, it's actually a problem with meeting the "since joining" activity requirement, The BOR may be correct - but it has nothing to do with Scout Spirit.

 

If it has to do with a Troop's participation requirement, that requirement must be spelled out - in advance - to everyone.  It has nothing to do with Scout Spirit.

 

I am curious about something - the Troop Committee's vote.  Are you sure the Troop Committee took a vote to deny a BOR, or was it a BOR that denied advancement until one more camping trip was completed?  It's a rather big difference - If your son did, in fact, sit for a BOR and they denied him advancement for this issue, the BOR may have acted correctly and just got terminology wrong.  If the Troop Committee gets together and votes on when Scouts can have a BOR - then they are not only doing it wrong, they are wandering through a canyon maze, they are so far off true north.  Committees don't have a say on whether a Scout can have a BOR - the SM tells the Committee that they need to convene a BOR for Scouts A, B & C and the Committee convenes the BOR.  They don't vote on whether to have them or not.

 

If the Troop Committee took a vote about whether to convene a BOR, and the Scoutmaster sat back and didn't raise a stink, then my suggestion for you would be to run - run and find a new Troop - because you can't fix stupid like that.

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by CalicoPenn

[Sentinel947 1205]

Gave Calico the marked as answer, since his is more succinctly written than mine. 

[Krampus 696]

I have a question regarding the requirement, essentially required for all rank advancements, which indicates that a scout must demonstrate scout spirit and live by the scout oath and law in his everyday life.

 

My son was recently denied the opportunity to have his BOR because the troop committee had voted against granting him approval for "scout spirit."

 

So, it sounds like the BOR denied him his "Scout Spirit" requirement? If that's true I have one question: How is that possible? Also, was the SM part of the BOR? If so, there's another issue.

 

The SM or youth leaders (however your unit does it) signs off on ALL requirements BEFORE the BOR. That's how BSA wants it. This is not optional and the BOR has literally no authority to deviate from this. So if the Scoutmaster signed off on his "Scout Spirit" requirement then he's earned that requirement. If a youth leader signed off on his Scout Spirit and the SM had the SMC and signed his handbook -- which denotes the SM's acceptance of the Scout as ready for his BOR -- then all his requirements are done and he gets his BOR. Section 8 of the GTA dictates when and how BORs are conducted. If your unit is not following these guidelines then you have some issues to address.

 

Regarding what "Active Scout" means, the GTA also is clear on that. In section 4.2.3.1 the BSA lays out three requirements to be considered active:

• Must be registered. If he's registered with the unit this is done.
• Must be in good standing. If he's not on an official probationary status then he's considered in good standing.
• The Scout must meet the "reasonable expectations" that define being active. HOWEVER, the GTA notes that "If, for the time period required, a Scout or qualifying Venturer or Sea Scout meets those aspects of his unit’s pre-established expectations that refer to a level of activity, then he is considered active and the requirement is met." I added the emphasis here because the unit MUST pre-establish what they consider to be active. In other words, they need to have an official policy that says to be considered active you need to attend 50% of all camp outs in a calendar year, or x% of the meetings, etc. If they DO NOT have such a policy then they MUST allow BSA calls the "alternative to the third test" to explain activity.

 From what you posted, I highly suspect the unit expects your Scout to attend x% of things but they may not have it documented anywhere. If that's the case they simply cannot classify him as being "Not Active". Even if they do have such a policy, if you can meet the "alternative to the third test" then there's an argument that he could still be considered active.

 

As for denying the Scout Spirit, the BOR has no authority to do so UNLESS the Scout was on probation or not in good standing with the troop and, therefore, the requirement was signed erroneously.

[SSF 57]

Thanks everyone, this is all very helpful.

 

My son is currently Star, so this was to be his BOR for Life.

 

The SM insists that it was the troop committee, and not himself, that denied him the opportunity to have his BOR, however, I suspect that the SM influenced and encouraged that decision.

 

In our troop, the troop committee does actually vote to approve or deny scout spirit for all scouts who are slated for rank advancement (and it sounds like in doing that, that they are not following BSA protocols properly).

 

They have always linked the "scout spirit" requirement to active participation; e.g, anytime we have a service project for our charter org or provide some other level of assistance to our charter org, the "threat" is always made that scouts had better attend IF they want to receive "scout spirit" for their next BOR

[qwazse 4342]

I guess they are preparing the boy to be nominated for SCOTUS ...

 

We wish you son all the best as he respectfully asks his committee chair to adhere to BSA policy.

[Stosh 3452]

Thanks everyone, this is all very helpful.

 

My son is currently Star, so this was to be his BOR for Life.

 

The SM insists that it was the troop committee, and not himself, that denied him the opportunity to have his BOR, however, I suspect that the SM influenced and encouraged that decision.

 

In our troop, the troop committee does actually vote to approve or deny scout spirit for all scouts who are slated for rank advancement (and it sounds like in doing that, that they are not following BSA protocols properly).

 

They have always linked the "scout spirit" requirement to active participation; e.g, anytime we have a service project for our charter org or provide some other level of assistance to our charter org, the "threat" is always made that scouts had better attend IF they want to receive "scout spirit" for their next BOR

 

THIS is why adults are not supposed to be in charge!  I rest my case!

[Krampus 696]

Thanks everyone, this is all very helpful.

 

My son is currently Star, so this was to be his BOR for Life.

 

The SM insists that it was the troop committee, and not himself, that denied him the opportunity to have his BOR, however, I suspect that the SM influenced and encouraged that decision.

 

In our troop, the troop committee does actually vote to approve or deny scout spirit for all scouts who are slated for rank advancement (and it sounds like in doing that, that they are not following BSA protocols properly).

 

They have always linked the "scout spirit" requirement to active participation; e.g, anytime we have a service project for our charter org or provide some other level of assistance to our charter org, the "threat" is always made that scouts had better attend IF they want to receive "scout spirit" for their next BOR

 

See my post above. I suspect your district executive would be very interested in the role your troop committee is playing because they cannot deny a BOR. Moreover, they do not sign off on Scout spirit...that is done by the SM before the BOR is granted. Lastly, they MUST define what active participation means BEFORE the BOR, and they need to give the Scout time to meet it. They cannot say "We expect 60% attendance" at the BOR, they need to make sure all Scouts know this expectation WELL in advance.

 

I would contact your district executive and chat them them. This committee is acting as gate keeper to rank advancement. As @@CalicoPenn said, you might want to "run" to another troop. This is NOT what Scouting is supposed to be. These adults have it all wrong and your son is taking the brunt of this.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Krampus

[qwazse 4342]

So, running this up the chain is possible.

Another possibility is for your boy to prove that "scout spirit" by planning a campout with his patrol. Surely, his boys can hustle a plan together in a day or two, and if these adults are all about their "scout spirit", there oughta be two among them who can chaperon for the weekend.

You think the SM's bluffing? What better way to call it than by arranging some fun hiking and camping independently with your mates!

[Stosh 3452]

If anyone is lacking in scout spirit, it's the members of this committee. pure and simple.

[Krampus 696]

So, running this up the chain is possible.

Another possibility is for your boy to prove that "scout spirit" by planning a campout with his patrol. Surely, his boys can hustle a plan together in a day or two, and if these adults are all about their "scout spirit", there oughta be two among them who can chaperon for the weekend.

You think the SM's bluffing? What better way to call it than by arranging some fun hiking and camping independently with your mates!

In a unit that adult controlled they would likely look at a patrol activity as a high risk thing that should have been approved by the board.

 

I'd talk to district...and be looking for a new troop.

[qwazse 4342]

In a unit that adult controlled they would likely look at a patrol activity as a high risk thing that should have been approved by the board.

 

I'd talk to district...and be looking for a new troop.

Agreed that there is room for pessimism.

But in situations like this I ask myself which would be more enjoyable:

- go crying foul to a district exec or advancement chair?

- go running to a new troop?

- go camping and hiking (maybe fishing, with opening day for trout fast approaching)?

 

I prioritize by doing the most fun thing first.

[Krampus 696]

Agreed that there is room for pessimism.

But in situations like this I ask myself which would be more enjoyable:

- go crying foul to a district exec or advancement chair?

- go running to a new troop?

- go camping and hiking (maybe fishing, with opening day for trout fast approaching)?

I prioritize by doing the most fun thing first.

Depends if you like watching smarty-pants adults getting come-uppence.