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Have had just about enough!


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#1 Oldscout448

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 04:40 PM

So brothers, can you tell me if I am overreacting?

Last chapter meeting our chief reported that we had received a rather desperate request from a neighboring chapter for belp on their callout ceremony in 11 days. Their team was down to 2-3 members, and their adult advisor had taken the job only few weeks earlier. So the scouts decided we should help, and have a joint callout, and if anyone from our chapter couldn't make it we would do another callout at our camporee four weeks later as was our original plan. All this was published in our district on line news letter as well as our chapter website.
So I met with the other advisor, rewrote the ceremony, texted and called back and forth with our ceremonies vice chief, agreed to all meet at their campsite at 1:00, and at noon having spent three hours loading drums,stands, torches, from garage attics we hit the road.

At 12:23 and email was sent out that we were canceling our callout. As I was driving I didn't look at it. Got there about 1:00 and started setting by 2 o'clock we were wondering why no one from our district was showing up for rehearsal. By 3:00 we started calling asking where are you? They said "umm it's cancelled right?" It was only then I remembered that my phone had beeped in route. I had figured it was just another sale email ffrom harbour freight or something.
Even if our district HAD canceled the other one was still relying on the help we had promised.
One of the four changed his plans and hot footed it up, two others couldn't make it the last one said "not my chapter so not my problem"
So we ended up drafting two brothers who had never done a ceremony before, and managed to salavage something.
One thing for sure we didn't impress anyone very much.

Frankly guys I'm still pretty angry. I'm tempted to wait untill four hours before our district's callout and send them an email saying " we decided to cancel. "
I sent off an email asking what the heck happened? last Saturday. No reply yet.
My ceremonies vice chief worked 10 hours straight trying desperately to make a disaster into something just barely acceptable. Now he tells me he has had enough, he plans to step down right after the ordeal. Can't say as I blame him much. Right now Im tempted to join him.

Edited by Oldscout448, 27 March 2016 - 04:45 PM.

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#2 RememberSchiff

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 05:15 PM

Now older and perhaps wiser, I am more thrifty with my time left. No excuses, no drama. Waste my time and I invest it elsewhere.

 

My family, dog, and BP (blood pressure not Baden-Powell) agree. :)


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#3 qwazse

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 05:30 PM

Oh, you should feel put out all right.

 

But, you should try to understand other folks' position. Why the last minute cancellation? Why by text and not phone chain? I doubt that there will be any satisfactory answers. But, it gives you time to think about what to do next.

 

Now, here is where we get into that "working with millenials" issue. First of all, a district that is two hours away would be completely alien in my day. (I know for some of you out West, this was always the case. But here it was different.) It would be a huge ask of someone's time to commit half a day's travel to help in a ceremony. Even so, the advisor would arrange a meeting point in the district and folks would car-pool from there. Secondly, you listed four different means of communication, the minority of which involved getting another person on the other end of the telephone. So a number of 21st century circumstances conspired to make this a failure-ridden situation.


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#4 Stosh

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 06:06 PM

I have never been a fan of wasted time, especially when it's been my time.  I'd call it a day and notify the OA honor society scout that said, "not my chapter, so not my problem." and let him know that the call out for his district IS his problem now and he can stop by and pick up the drum any time it's convenient to you.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#5 desertrat77

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 06:48 PM

Our time on Earth is finite.

 

It took me awhile, but I've finally learned to disengage from organizations that do not respect my time.

 

Regardless of the reason for the last minute cancellation, their lack of follow up afterwards is a clue:   they don't know what they are doing, and they don't care if you are inconvenienced.  

 

I too would resign and find something else to do.


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#6 SSScout

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 07:31 PM

Let me understand this.

Chapter A  has too few members and a newbie advisor to do a quality call out at their camporee, in 11 days, and asks  Chapter B for help.

Chapter B has a camporee callout scheduled a few weeks after Chapter A's, so Chapter B muscles up and arranges to go to Chapter A's Camporee to help with the callout, with the understanding that if it can't workout, Chapter A will come with their candidates (?) to Chapter B's camporee to have their ceremonial callout there.  Is that correct so far?

 

While the OP is enroute to Chapter A's camporee with gear and fellow OA ceremonial team members,  SOMEBODY (who??)  texts (email??) everyone (really? Everyone?)  that the callout is canceled?  An hour before the agreed upon time?   Was hurricane predicted??

You picked up the pieces (got a crew together) and (forgive the Cub Scout mention) "Did Your Best".

 

 Oldscout448, you  and your fellow Arrowmen) "did your Duty".   You were "Trustworthy".  And "Helpful". And " Loyal".   You have nothing to be ashamed of and reason to be proud.

 

I would feel "put out " too.  I would beat those bushes and find out who canceled  and   why they thought it should be canceled.  Canceled?  Good googamooga, they had Scouts expecting SOMEONE to be Called Out (usta be "tapped Out", I know....). Tap out, call out, put out...

 

Chapter A MUST realize (and if they don't their DE or SE needs to make it plain), that no matter how small or irrelevant they may feel as a group, they have been  very unScoutlike to you.   If Chapter A is in the throes of a rebuilding, then here is a prime example of a chance to "make things right".  Understanding.   Apologies.  Cooperation..   Owning up to a very poor faux pas.

 

And Chapter B  has a chance here , too.   By YOUR example, give Chapter A a leg up.   You won't be sorry.

 

See you on the trail....


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#7 CalicoPenn

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 08:33 AM

SSScout  - I don't think it was Chapter A that was un-scoutlike - they reached out for help and were told they would get it from Chapter B.

 

The problem is Chapter B - someone in that chapter sent a text cancelling the call-out, not someone from Chapter A.  I think the first thing I would want to know is who sent the text cancelling the call-out?  That's a question the Chapter Chief should be able to answer - at least in the chapter's I've worked with, the only one that is cancelling a chapter program or obligation is the Chapter Chief.

 

Old - I would be absolutely livid that someone cancelled this without giving me as the advisor the courtesy of a consult.  I would reply to all on the text message demanding an answer as to who made that decision and why (a good rule of thumb on modern communications - if a message is sent by text, respond by text, not e-mail - they may not read the e-mail for a while).

 

These boys made a commitment and they failed to honor it - it sounds like they may not have even told the other chapter they were cancelling. 

 

I would be done giving any more time to this chapter - I'd let the Chapter Chief and the District Chair know that I was resigning as advisor effective immediately and that the chapter has 1 week make an appointment to get the equipment before I put it to the curb for trash collection. 


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#8 SSScout

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 09:27 AM

Aha!   I missed that item.  Someone in Chap A canceled their arrangement?    Even more strange.   Why accept the request to help, make all the plans and arrangements and then try to cancel the event?

 

In my pre-retirement life, part of my job was investigating accidents and trying to determine HOW it happened.  It  was not my "official" duty to determine who was at fault or to find blame , only to collect evidence and testimony, etc.  Even so, I realized that in the finding of evidence, I would very likely end up pointing to  the cause and who was to blame, even tho I would not be the one to pass judgement, so to speak.

 

Oldscout448, be open and honest in expressing your disappointment and angst.   Help to make this a learning experience for your Scouts, and remember, they are ALL your Scouts, no matter which side of the border they live.


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#9 Sentinel947

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 09:53 AM

Yea, I think an situation autopsy needs to be performed before you make a decision about your involvement going forward. 

When volunteers quit suddenly, the real losers are the Scouts. If your scouts (or theirs) caused the screw up, it's a learning opportunity, a coaching opportunity. If the other chapter, or one of your chapter advisers caused it, I'd be creating another learning opportunity, which is, don't waste my time. 


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#10 Stosh

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 12:50 PM

:)  My boys are all taught that from day one when they join.  My pet peeve is having my time wasted.  Because of that focus they quickly learn that wasting their own time isn't a good policy either. 


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#11 hendrickms24

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 08:47 PM

Oldscout448, 

First off,  I think I'm the new OA Advisor of the chapter you helped out.  If not very eerie similar to my chapters Callout.  In my instance,  I could not have asked for any better help at the Callout.  Both the advisor and youth members from the other Chapter were great.  The youth arrowman told me that he would help any brother that need help!  He said he would stay for the callout and lead my chapters youth new to the ceremony team.   I had to leave because my son had emergency Surgery but I was told by other adults for my district that it went well.   I hope to see all my OA Brothers that helped out at the joint OA Ordeal in a few weeks.  The reason is I want to recognize them and give them a small gift being such great brothers and fellow scouts.  Please do not quite because I know you help out and are very valuable to scouting program.  That is whether your the Advisor that helped me or another great Scouter. 


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#12 jpstodwftexas

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 02:43 AM

No Matter how Hard you try.... these days just don't compare to the old days...

Hard to tell where it went wrong...

 

When I left the Lodge..We had a Great Dance team..We had Tepees..We built Arbors for the Drummers and Singers. ...Guide  would lead the Visitors along a Trail to the far end of Camp through the Woods...to be Challenged by Spirt Warriors along the Path...in the distance Drums and singers could be heard...They would be welcome to the Circle..Scouts sat in a Half moon on the Ground...Elders and Siblings sat on log Benches. Chief would welcome everyone...Medicine man would offer a prayer....Dance team would perform....just before sunset Medicine man would offer a blessing to the Spirits to welcome new members...Fire would magically light... Dancers would be out in the Scouts...and On Drum Beat...Candidate would be swooshed out of Crowd and Tapped out...Receive a Block of Wood and a willow wreath...To Bring Back to ordeal ( to be burned...Block of Wood was to be carved into an Arrow..) At Ordeal if you Violated silence you got a Notch...3 you were out of Ordeal..

 

We had Pre-ordeal memorized. We had Ordeal Memorized, We had Brotherhood, Memorized Vigil...We had Regalia. As Soon as a Ceremonies team member made the Next Level they started learning the Next Ceremony to step in...We knew all Parts...

 

When I came Back..everything was gone..No Dancers, No Regalia, No Tepees, No Arbor...not even a Tap  Call out ring anymore

They were not escort from Closing Camp fire before Call out Ceremony any more..Now They Danced for a few minutes...Then Called out the Candidates..No Swoosh..just called out. Given No Wood no willow wreaths

 

And the Worst Part...They were reading everything...

And then the same thing at the Ordeal....and Flash lights to read by...

Ordeal went from Friday Night to Sunday Evening to Saturday Night to Sunday Morning..

 

:( :( :( :( :(

 

And it was allowed because OA is Boy Lead...


Edited by jpstodwftexas, 05 April 2016 - 02:47 AM.

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#13 Krampus

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 05:52 AM

...yet I'll bet every boy can memorize the levels of Assassin's Creed.
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#14 Stosh

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 05:56 AM

They've memorized the names of every Pokeman character ever created.  Memorizing things requires a desire to learn, not just get credit for taking tests.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#15 OwaTaguSiam

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 10:48 AM

They've memorized the names of every Pokeman character ever created.  Memorizing things requires a desire to learn, not just get credit for taking tests.

Yup.  Enjoy!  :D

 


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#16 Krampus

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 11:07 AM

When I left the Lodge..We had a Great Dance team..We had Tepees..We built Arbors for the Drummers and Singers. ...Guide  would lead the Visitors along a Trail to the far end of Camp through the Woods...to be Challenged by Spirt Warriors along the Path...in the distance Drums and singers could be heard...They would be welcome to the Circle..Scouts sat in a Half moon on the Ground...Elders and Siblings sat on log Benches. Chief would welcome everyone...Medicine man would offer a prayer....Dance team would perform....just before sunset Medicine man would offer a blessing to the Spirits to welcome new members...Fire would magically light... Dancers would be out in the Scouts...and On Drum Beat...Candidate would be swooshed out of Crowd and Tapped out...Receive a Block of Wood and a willow wreath...To Bring Back to ordeal ( to be burned...Block of Wood was to be carved into an Arrow..) At Ordeal if you Violated silence you got a Notch...3 you were out of Ordeal..

 

We had Pre-ordeal memorized. We had Ordeal Memorized, We had Brotherhood, Memorized Vigil...We had Regalia. As Soon as a Ceremonies team member made the Next Level they started learning the Next Ceremony to step in...We knew all Parts...

 

Wow...I am impressed!! That sounds like a great experience for the boys on both sides of the line.

 

Our unit has a ceremonial team which provides crossover services for local Packs and does our own tap out. Just did the tap out last night. Kids, parents and participants thought it was great. Much more special than being 4 of 200 Scouts called out in a 2.5 hour ceremony at district camp.

 

I'd like to see more units and districts do these things to make OA special again. It is a lost art.


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#17 Oldscout448

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 06:26 PM

If we want to sit around the campfire here and tell tales of how it was in the old days ( for me 1974- 1982 )  I will gratefully listen and hand out the coffee and donuts,    I loved being a part of something special,  something hard,  we did the difficult work, the dirty work, and we were proud of it.

 

jpstodtexas  you would have fit in well I think.  We did much the same thing, a few differences of course,  but the whole point was to make being tapped out something that the candidate would remember the rest of his scouting days.    And the Ordeal the rest of his life.  I remember watching a Vigil tapout a summer camp that just left everyone in awe.  One second class scout at his first summer camp told me the next morning " That was just amazing!  What is this Order thing all about anyway?  Thats when I knew we were doing it right!    It took huge amounts of work ( as well you know )  but we all counted it as well worth the cost.   We were adding "sticks" to the "fire" one by one.  Keeping it going  for the the next generation of scouting.

 

Now  just wonder if all that even mattered,  I hope in my heart it did to someone, But no one even seems to remember  that it was once different.  I can not even get the district to consider having the Ordeal Ceremony after sunset.  " To much work for the cook crew " they cry  " a lot of us need to go home at 7:00pm ", "we have a  ballgame/band practice/ hot date/ track meet....."    In vain do I point out that the ceremony is much more impressive in the dark and therefor more likely to impress and keep new brothers active. they just dont care." Just get the right number of new members this year and the chapter gets a gold star from the Lodge.  If we run late our numbers might drop"  O the horror !

 

The order was never  supposed to be about numbers!   it was always the few,  the proud. ( apolgies to all jarheads)

 

Hendrick  ya that was me, and one of the scouts was my son who had arrived home from school about one in the morning,  he and the chief deserve a flipping gold  medal or something.  I am still trying to think of something suitable that I can afford.  Who was the draftee who did Meteu? Grab him quick!   for only half an hour of practice he did a stunning job

  

I was told ( two weeks afterward)  that the reason  excuse was that not all the paperwork had gone through for all the adult candidates. So it would not be fair to give a public call out to some scouters and not others.   I just about exploded. It is Not about the scouters!!  It is about the scouts!  and for this you were willing to have 20 or so scouts drive ( or be driven by their proud parents)  for miles only to be told " sorry you arent important enough for us to go to the effort of doing what we promised"  

What in ....

 

This is hard to type without using unscoutlike words

 

I can not think of a better way to make sure those 20 scouts never ever come back.  In fact I would bet on 100% " sash and dash"  assuming they even bothered coming to the Ordeal.

 

I have no plans of quitting the Order, but I have been assured by several other chapters that I would by most welcome and I must admit I am giving it a lot of thought tonight

 

WWW Oldscout


Edited by Oldscout448, 06 April 2016 - 06:38 PM.

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#18 hendrickms24

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 09:04 PM

Hendrick  ya that was me, and one of the scouts was my son who had arrived home from school about one in the morning,  he and the chief deserve a flipping gold  medal or something.  I am still trying to think of something suitable that I can afford.  Who was the draftee who did Meteu? Grab him quick!   for only half an hour of practice he did a stunning job

  

I was told ( two weeks afterward)  that the reason  excuse was that not all the paperwork had gone through for all the adult candidates. So it would not be fair to give a public call out to some scouters and not others.   I just about exploded. It is Not about the scouters!!  It is about the scouts!  and for this you were willing to have 20 or so scouts drive ( or be driven by their proud parents)  for miles only to be told " sorry you arent important enough for us to go to the effort of doing what we promised"  

What in ....

 

This is hard to type without using unscoutlike words

 

I can not think of a better way to make sure those 20 scouts never ever come back.  In fact I would bet on 100% " sash and dash"  assuming they even bothered coming to the Ordeal.

 

I have no plans of quitting the Order, but I have been assured by several other chapters that I would by most welcome and I must admit I am giving it a lot of thought tonight

 

WWW Oldscout

 

Well the two scouts with speaking parts I think (since I had to leave) were Kyle (from my son's troop) and Steffon.  They are both great young men and hope to get them more involved with the OA.  I did get all the scouts and you something to show how much the chapter and I thanks them for all the help.  I will have to present my token of gratitude at the Ordeal.   I understand your feeling and can only hope for the best out come.  My chapter had no Adults called out because I had not heard back from Lodge and I really did not care.  The youth are what the program about.  I got push back about wanting to help with the chapter Vigil nomination committee.  I was told I was eligible for vigil so could not be on it.  I replied that I do not deserve Vigil period that caught the adults attention.   I hope to see you at the join Ordeal.


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#19 Oldscout448

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 05:09 AM

In the words of a friend who has been on the lodge vigil committee for decades "You are a vigil when you do what a vigil does, hopefully the chapter/lodge recognises it and gives you a sash with a triangle on it. If not,carry on.
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#20 jpstodwftexas

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 05:13 AM

I believe we did it right...

 

Our Ordeals went something like this..

Friday Night Check in 7 pm check in Candidates...Sunset Pre Ordeal Ceremony.. Stake out.. Friday Night Cracker Barrel....for members Spades and Dominoes Tournaments (Youth and Adults)....and Vigil Ordeal

 

Saturday

5 am Candidate Breakfast ( Raw Egg, 2 Slices pint of Milk, 1 Match and a sheet of Tin Foil)/ Vigil Ceremony

6am Saturday Steak Vigil Breakfast

7am Everyone else Breakfast

8 am Work Project

12 Noon Lunch Candidates first ( 2 Slices of Bread and a Slice of Baloney...Water only) everyone else nice lunch.

1 pm Work Details..

5 Pm Dinner Candidates first ( 2 Slices of Bread and a Slice of Baloney...Water Only)....everyone Else nice Dinner

6 pm-Sunset ...candidate Meditation/lodge Orientation (History of OA and Lodge,  ..Lodge Members free time Spades and Dominoes. Brotherhood Candidates review and testing . Sunset Candidates Stake out again...Brotherhood Ceremony...Free Time for Non eligible Members

Sunday

5 am Candidate Breakfast ( Same as Saturday)

6am Vigil and New Brotherhood  Steak breakfast

7 am Everyone Else Breakfast

8 am Church

9 am Work projects

12 Noon Lunch Candidates first..(4 Slices of Bread 2 Slices of Baloney)..everyone else nice Lunch

1 PM Work projects...

4 pm Work Stop ...Everyone...(Open Swim in Summer for an Hour)...followed By Showers >>>EVERYONE

5 Pm Ordeal Ceremony

7ish...Dinner New Ordeal Members first....( 2 Baloney Sandwiches for Show)...Steak Dinner for New Members (including  Baked Potatoes, Red Beans, Salad, Iced Tea, and Cherry Cobbler and Ice Cream and a mess of other Goodies) ..seconds of New Members...

8ish...Lodge Business...New Vigils announced, New Brotherhood Announced, New Ordeals Announced and received lodge Flap. Awards for Spades and Dominoes....lodge Elections were done at Winter Ordeal since it got Darker sooner..so times were adjusted for earlier Sunset,

9ish Cleaning up and Went home

 

We had a fellowship once a month..Be it a Camp out, Movie, Pizza Party..or Work Projects...Lodge Dancers made every Campfire in Regalia and Closing Camp Fire at all Council events

We averaged 50 Youth at every activity....And about as many Adults.

We never read from Books

Our Lodge Flap was a 1 in Lifetime


Edited by jpstodwftexas, 09 April 2016 - 05:21 AM.

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