Eagle Scout Service Project Approvals Set Precedent?

[RememberSchiff 3661]

If Eagle Scout Service Project X is approved by Council/District Advancement Committee A does that set a precedent for that council A? for all councils?

 

I am seeing more "lawyering" when Eagle projects are proposed and less resistance by our Advancement Committee.

 

 

[Krampus 696]

If Eagle Scout Service Project X is approved by Council/District Advancement Committee A does that set a precedent for that council A? for all councils?

 

I am seeing more "lawyering" when Eagle projects are proposed and less resistance by our Advancement Committee.

Not sure I follow the question. The proposal for the project is approved by the beneficiary, SM and unit chair, then by the district representative. then the project begins.

 

I think we've seen some units/districts approve just about anything, while some units/districts require more than others.

 

Can you clarify what you mean?

[qwazse 4342]

Well, obviously if a DAC approves a project plan, his approval/disapproval sets precedent in the district. Unless someone convinces him of the error of his ways, he's likely to do the same thing for other projects.

Should I expect my DAC to act the same way as your DAC? From what I've learned about the latitude given to councils about how they implement the approval process, the answer seems to be "no."

I would think, however, that a Life scout in district A who learns about his cousin's project in district B should expect to be able to propose the same for his project without much opposition.

[RememberSchiff 3661]

Well, obviously if a DAC approves a project plan, his approval/disapproval sets precedent in the district. Unless someone convinces him of the error of his ways, he's likely to do the same thing for other projects.

Should I expect my DAC to act the same way as your DAC? From what I've learned about the latitude given to councils about how they implement the approval process, the answer seems to be "no."

I would think, however, that a Life scout in district A who learns about his cousin's project in district B should expect to be able to propose the same for his project without much opposition.

Agreed, neither of us would. There is no precedent set I am aware anyway.

 

I have seen projects approved here that would not have been approved ten years ago and vice versa. Projects that would were approved in other councils that would be turned down here and likley again vice versa. Experienced scouters have mostly understood this is the way of life and it may be or seem unfair. One umpire might call a way outside pitch a strike while another knew the strike zone. I had my first Eagle project turned down, so I regrouped and did something different (Plan B) even though other scouts had received approval for the same idea earlier from a differently constituted Advancement Committee.

 

But today, this life lesson seems to be getting lost, well at least around here. I am sure Googling, social media, parenting styles are part culprits but I have not found relevant  guidance in the program literature for the those claiming unfairness in this regard. I was looking for a statement such as the following but have not found it yet. I was hoping others might direct.

 

Your project may be rejected even though the same or similar project may have been accepted earlier by your troop, beneficiary, or council or other troops, beneficiaries, and councils. Accept their feedback and try again.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

It happens even within the same district. One DAC thinks a project is good enough to be use, but another DAC later on doesn't think it's good enough.

 

That happened to a friend of mine. DAC during the approval process thought making portable training obstacles for the local search and rescue team's dogs was a great idea. When he goes for his EBOR, the current DAC expresses how he didn't think it was good enough for an Eagle project, and he would not have approved it. But since it was approved and completed, there was nothing he could do about it.

[fred johnson 936]

Precedent is useful to review consistency, criteria or how things are being done.  But whether I sign is based on the specific proposal and the here and now.  

 

If anything, I've seen the opposite.  As we learn about beneficiaries or types of projects, Eagle proposals that may have been signed in the past may not be signed in the future.  Usually, it has to do with learning how the beneficiary works with the scouts.  Or, learning more about the nature of a specific project.  Or learning that a troop has a blue-print for a bench and all the scouts are using that blue print.  Just buying wood and assembling.  

 

Consistency is important.  But we get the consistency by targeting approvals based on BSA guidance (policies, procedures, news letters, etc).  

 

Essentially, it goes no where when I hear that from my scouts or my sons justify that they should get something because another person did.  

[Stosh 3452]

I personally have been working on a historical project for the past 20 years with the archives of the local library.  I have had boys take on pieces of the project as their eagle projects.  There have been questions raised as to whether or not the boy's project is worthwhile or able to provide leadership opportunity because it is under another project being done.  So far, the projects seem to make the local newspapers, get other community organizations involved with follow-up, and although questioned by the council have never been rejected.  The third time around the committee questioned it, the boy provided the news articles showing the PR garnered on two previous Eagle projects, and it was then approved. 

 

The problem lies not in the consistency of the projects, but the consistency of the committees.... That's just one of those adult interference dynamics that goes along with the Eagle Project process.

[fred johnson 936]

I personally have been working on a historical project for the past 20 years with the archives of the local library.  I have had boys take on pieces of the project as their eagle projects.  

 

IMHO, that situation is probably absolutely fine ... but it would raise some questions. .... I'd look for a proposal description of a stand-alone project where the scout owned the proposal, could develop the idea and significantly influence the result.

• Does the project stand on it's own?  
  • Or is it started by another's efforts and/or completed by another's efforts?  
• Is the scout just coordinating labor for another's project?
  • I've seen some projects where the scout describes a much larger project than is under the scope of his influence.  Others acquire materials and/or execute the design.  The scout in reality is just staffing part. 
• Would the project still happen if the scout's proposal is not approved?

[Krampus 696]

The problem lies not in the consistency of the projects, but the consistency of the committees.... That's just one of those adult interference dynamics that goes along with the Eagle Project process.

We've kept track of all the Eagle projects we've submitted and of those in the district. If we ever get an adult saying a project isn't worthy we make a meeting and trot out the list. They usually approve the project after that.

[fred johnson 936]

We've kept track of all the Eagle projects we've submitted and of those in the district. If we ever get an adult saying a project isn't worthy we make a meeting and trot out the list. They usually approve the project after that.

 

LOL.   That would not get very far with me.  I'd probably smile, say thank you and put it to the side almost immediately.     Each scout is an individual and each project is different even if they sound similar.  Plus, even at the district level, we're learning.  Perhaps, the previous one should not have been approved.  Mistakes happen.

 

But on the flip side ... it is very rare at a district level that Eagle proposals are not approved. 

[Krampus 696]

LOL.   That would not get very far with me.  I'd probably smile, say thank you and put it to the side almost immediately.     Each scout is an individual and each project is different even if they sound similar.  Plus, even at the district level, we're learning.  Perhaps, the previous one should not have been approved.  Mistakes happen.

 

But on the flip side ... it is very rare at a district level that Eagle proposals are not approved. 

 

The list we have includes the project proposals and plans. Before we discuss their objections with any nay-sayers themselves we get them to document their objections. After comparing it to past projects, if the objection(s) has already been proven to be moot, we show them the precedent and ask them again what their objection is. Usually we find that they acquiesce in the light of proof that their objection has already been addressed. If they cannot document the unworthiness of the project linked to any other substantial requirement by BSA, then we ask them kindly to reconsider their objection. They usually do. Only once in the last 12 years did someone hold their ground....on a totally erroneous basis. They simply did not think the project "worthy" of an Eagle project. They were overruled when council stepped in to show them they were wrong.

 

This does not happen often. Five times in 12 years. But it is amazing at how fast, when challenged by another adult, the control freaks scramble to find cover when confronted by someone with equal or greater knowledge of the rules than they have. 

[Stosh 3452]

Some interesting points to consider and I'll pass it by my pet project I offer my Eagle candidates.....

 

For 20 years now I have been researching the lives of Veterans buried in our county.  It started out as a personal project for myself, developed into a project for the Archives of the local Library and is coordinated now with the Federal Veterans' Administration.  It kinda took on a life of it's own.  I now have 2,200+ pages of research complied and was working on it last, yesterday....

 

I don't see the sub-projects my boys do any different than a sub-project done for the DNR, NPS, or such or any other on-going project within the scope of a greater project.

 

 

IMHO, that situation is probably absolutely fine ... but it would raise some questions. .... I'd look for a proposal description of a stand-alone project where the scout owned the proposal, could develop the idea and significantly influence the result.

• Does the project stand on it's own?  Yep, just like a limited scope project for the DNR to clear out a section of hiking trail.
  • Or is it started by another's efforts and/or completed by another's efforts?  It is started by another's efforts (mine) and completed by another's efforts, (actions taken by VA followup)
• Is the scout just coordinating labor for another's project? YES, and the coordinating of labor is the "show leadership" that is the focal point of every Eagle project, or at least should be! 
  • I've seen some projects where the scout describes a much larger project than is under the scope of his influence.  Others acquire materials and/or execute the design.  The scout in reality is just staffing part.   Nope, the scout is given a scope that he is to work within.  That "part" is a section of a larger scope of my project.  Just like the DNR has a wider range of concern than the "Lead shot survey in a certain place in the river where ducks consume the lead shot." project of an Eagle candidate.
• Would the project still happen if the scout's proposal is not approved?  Yes, eventually but the limitations of the current system would mean that same results would be hit-or-miss over the course of decades without the help of the scout.

 

 

Right now the Veterans' Administration relies on the volunteers that place flags on military graves to notify them when the stones are broken, damaged, worn, lichen covered to the point where they are no longer readable.  Generally this is not done.  It is far easier to just stick a new flag in by the stone and forget about it.   

 

What I suggest is a candidate takes a cemetery, takes the list of military veterans buried there and organizes a project around having teams of 2 boys go to each of the stones, photograph them for the Find a Grave project, collect up any information at the site for genealogical data, evaluate the presence of a military marker, and if that marker is readable, in good repair and is clean and record that information for the VA.  The Veterans' Administration is the beneficiary of the project officially, but Find a Grave research, my research (genealogical) and VA all receive valuable information from the project.

 

With the help of the troop WebMaster, the photos and information are entered into Find a Grave internet project, records are turned over to me for my research, and the VA applications (with photoes of damaged/illegible stones for verification) for new stones are filed and replaced by the VA as needed.  The last Eagle that did this project involved over 20 boys, and had 19 military stones replaced with new ones.  He received recognition from the American Legion, the County Historical Society, and an article in the local and state newspapers.

 

By the way, the first time this project was submitted to the Council Committee it was deemed not worthy of an Eagle project.  That situation has long been cleared up and subsequent projects at other cemeteries have been well received by a lot more than BSA and the beneficiary VA.....

 

So, @@fred johnson it could be that this type of project may not meet some standardized rules imposed by some council committee, but each case must be looked at as meeting the Eagle rank requirement, not some arbitrary subjective rules of a committee somewhere.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Stosh

[fred johnson 936]

I don't see the sub-projects my boys do any different than a sub-project done for the DNR, NPS, or such or any other on-going project within the scope of a greater project.

 

Every project is different.  Period.  Every project needs to be viewed on it's own.  

 

I'd take BSA GTA section 9.0.2.3 “Plan, Develop …†as the guiding measure.  The blood bank example in that section is a great example.  By default, a blood bank project does not meet the criteria.  But if the scout can demonstrate how they will be doing significant planning and development of those plans, then it becomes good.  In the case of a blood bank, developing an new marketing plan and setting higher targets ... and achieving those targets.  If he just uses blood bank marketing materials and their instructions on how to run the event, then the project should not be approved.  That's BSA's instructions and our guidance on when something has significant planning.  

 

If working on your library project or the DNR or the ... fulfills that expectation, then it's good.   Or, can the project be massaged and/or grown to fulfill that expectation.

[Stosh 3452]

Every project is different.  Period.  Every project needs to be viewed on it's own.  

 

I'd take BSA GTA section 9.0.2.3 “Plan, Develop …†as the guiding measure.  The blood bank example in that section is a great example.  By default, a blood bank project does not meet the criteria.  But if the scout can demonstrate how they will be doing significant planning and development of those plans, then it becomes good.  In the case of a blood bank, developing an new marketing plan and setting higher targets ... and achieving those targets.  If he just uses blood bank marketing materials and their instructions on how to run the event, then the project should not be approved.  That's BSA's instructions and our guidance on when something has significant planning.  

 

If working on your library project or the DNR or the ... fulfills that expectation, then it's good.   Or, can the project be massaged and/or grown to fulfill that expectation.

 

I know there are certain criteria that has to be met and some are more important than others.  For me, the process of leadership (not just management) is of prime importance.  Sure there's a bit of management involved to make it work, but for some, that's the only thing that is worthwhile for the project.  The candidate only has to get the job done, and having people involved isn't all that important.  I have seen too many Eagle project work days where no one shows up to help.  What's with that?  Where's the leadership here?  There isn't any.  The candidate has no clue how to take care of his people to insure they show up ready to work on the eagle project.  What's even sadder yet is when the SM/ASM's then step in and mandate the boys' attendance or their "scout spirit" will suffer on their advancement.   These slow-motion train wrecks are difficult to watch and yet the boy eventually will get the project done if only adults are the only ones showing up to help.  The task is done the project is complete, but no leadership is necessarily credited to the project by the scout.  It's kinda sad to see.

 

The nice thing about the cemetery project is there is nothing to build, no fund raising, just abstract organization, cemetery maps and lot identification, training of the other scouts to know how to do the grave surveys, what to look for what to photograph, what to record, etc. and then an opportunity for them to get out and work on the project on a day that works for everyone.  The boys have always enjoyed the projects because it's like some big treasure hunt process of finding the graves on the maps, reading the stones, learning about the lives of these people and recognizing the veteran contribution each of them have given our country.  The really fun part was when one of the boys found a veteran's grave that wasn't a US veteran and got all excited about it.  The gentleman's grave was marked on a family stone indicating he was a sergeant in the Texas Army.  Everyone had to stop doing what they were doing and came over to "visit" this site.  It was as if they had just discovered a Captain Kidd's treasure chest.

 

Many years afterwards, the one boy that first did this as an Eagle project told me that after all these years, whenever he's near a cemetery, he goes over and reads the stones of the military markers.  It would seem he carries his Eagle project with him wherever he goes. 

[fred johnson 936]

I know there are certain criteria that has to be met and some are more important than others.  For me, the process of leadership (not just management) is of prime importance.  Sure there's a bit of management involved to make it work, but for some, that's the only thing that is worthwhile for the project.  The candidate only has to get the job done, and having people involved isn't all that important.  I have seen too many Eagle project work days where no one shows up to help.  What's with that?  Where's the leadership here?  There isn't any.  The candidate has no clue how to take care of his people to insure they show up ready to work on the eagle project.  What's even sadder yet is when the SM/ASM's then step in and mandate the boys' attendance or their "scout spirit" will suffer on their advancement.   These slow-motion train wrecks are difficult to watch and yet the boy eventually will get the project done if only adults are the only ones showing up to help.  The task is done the project is complete, but no leadership is necessarily credited to the project by the scout.  It's kinda sad to see.

 

The nice thing about the cemetery project is there is nothing to build, no fund raising, just abstract organization, cemetery maps and lot identification, training of the other scouts to know how to do the grave surveys, what to look for what to photograph, what to record, etc. and then an opportunity for them to get out and work on the project on a day that works for everyone.  The boys have always enjoyed the projects because it's like some big treasure hunt process of finding the graves on the maps, reading the stones, learning about the lives of these people and recognizing the veteran contribution each of them have given our country.  The really fun part was when one of the boys found a veteran's grave that wasn't a US veteran and got all excited about it.  The gentleman's grave was marked on a family stone indicating he was a sergeant in the Texas Army.  Everyone had to stop doing what they were doing and came over to "visit" this site.  It was as if they had just discovered a Captain Kidd's treasure chest.

 

Many years afterwards, the one boy that first did this as an Eagle project told me that after all these years, whenever he's near a cemetery, he goes over and reads the stones of the military markers.  It would seem he carries his Eagle project with him wherever he goes. 

 

It sounds like a great service project and very worth while.  

 

As for an eagle project, I don't know either way.  That would be something for the specific district to consider.  

 

A key point though is there is a difference between an Eagle project and a service project.  Both can be very worthwhile and meaningful.  But there is a difference.