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YPT ... you can't have just one

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#21 Krampus

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Posted 11 March 2016 - 07:41 AM

The BSA system uses volunteers - mere humans who can and do make mistakes despite their training.   (We just had a B of R "postponed" when the candidate showed up in "old" (pre-2010 I think) trousers and a brand new shirt. ("Out of uniform").  Turns out the chair of the board had personal ideas that he felt trumped National "guidance" on B of Rs.  

 

But mere humans went to the moon, built space stations, summited Everest, went to the Marina Trench, etc. We are talking simple, simple code here. It is my no means rocket science.

 

BSA should know how long it takes to process recharters. BSA should know that Scouts will turn 18 during the time it takes to process recharters. BSA should know Eagle is the most important rank in Scouting. BSA should have a WELL ESTABLISHED process for dealing with how they manage the applications of those who turned 18 during recharter. Not buying "they are only human" excuse.

 

Even squirrels know winter comes each year. Let'f not assume BSA staff are not smarter than the lowly squirrel. ;)


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#22 Stosh

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Posted 11 March 2016 - 07:52 AM

To say "they are only humans" is another way of saying, we are accepting immediacy as our standard.


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#23 Sentinel947

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Posted 11 March 2016 - 08:52 AM

To say "they are only humans" is another way of saying, we are accepting immediacy as our standard.

Mediocrity? 


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#24 Stosh

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Posted 11 March 2016 - 01:49 PM

Mediocrity? 

Yes....I'm only human after all. :rolleyes:

 

Stupor smell cheek.... :)


Edited by Stosh, 11 March 2016 - 01:52 PM.

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#25 TAHAWK

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Posted 11 March 2016 - 04:00 PM

 

But mere humans went to the moon, built space stations, summited Everest, went to the Marina Trench, etc. We are talking simple, simple code here. It is my no means rocket science.

 

BSA should know how long it takes to process recharters. BSA should know that Scouts will turn 18 during the time it takes to process recharters. BSA should know Eagle is the most important rank in Scouting. BSA should have a WELL ESTABLISHED process for dealing with how they manage the applications of those who turned 18 during recharter. Not buying "they are only human" excuse.

 

Even squirrels know winter comes each year. Let'f not assume BSA staff are not smarter than the lowly squirrel.  ;)

 

It's the human condition.  The "average" guy is better than half the population.   :confused:

 

And human rocket scientists at NASA confused metric with English measurements and BOOM!  Or do you own any shares in SpaceX?  :blink:

 

Many died on the way up or down Everest.  >250 thus far.   No one died here.  Just a screw up that should embarrass those who ignored the rules and made up their own "better" ones.

 

Even the simple can be difficult to obtain.  Patrol Method seems simple to me, but how many troops understand that a "troop is made up of patrols" rather than made up of Scouts -- or understand what those words means if they bother to read them in the current Handbook?.

 

 

And do I not see a council error (district acts on behalf of council by delegated authority in advancement matters) being related, not BSA?  

 

 

Not that BSA wins prizes for use of English, especially in the IT realm.


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#26 qwazse

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Posted 11 April 2016 - 07:33 AM

Yesterday a newly-young-adult venturer said "BSA has taken the fun out of being a young adult scouter."   I'd like to hear from others "in the trenches" with dual registered young adults. Maybe I'm just in a bubble of negativity.

 

FWIW this young man is "the go to guy" for instrumental back-up at his school musical. His older brothers are always welcome to drop by and pitch in there, nobody there asks them to fill out paperwork to serve along side these impressionable youth.

 

They simply don't have the patience for this sort of thing.


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#27 Stosh

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Posted 11 April 2016 - 07:37 AM

Is it BSA or the local Crew's program that is the problem.  A good adviser should be able to work around the BS part of BSA.


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#28 qwazse

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Posted 11 April 2016 - 09:00 AM

Is it BSA or the local Crew's program that is the problem.  A good adviser should be able to work around the BS part of BSA.

What a lovely platitude!

 

Examples, please? How about getting on the horn with the advisor of that reenactment crew of yours, ask him to get his young adults who might also wear both ASM and Crew participant hats, and relay what they think. Get them online to say how they've made peace the YP requirements.

 

This isn't a one-sided request. I intend to get some constructive feedback at our Area Summit this weekend. I'll let you all know what I learn.

 

Because what I think I really need is to show my young adults that Venturers across the country are sucking it up and getting it done.


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#29 Stosh

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Posted 11 April 2016 - 12:44 PM

What a lovely platitude!

 

Examples, please? How about getting on the horn with the advisor of that reenactment crew of yours, ask him to get his young adults who might also wear both ASM and Crew participant hats, and relay what they think. Get them online to say how they've made peace the YP requirements.

 

This isn't a one-sided request. I intend to get some constructive feedback at our Area Summit this weekend. I'll let you all know what I learn.

 

Because what I think I really need is to show my young adults that Venturers across the country are sucking it up and getting it done.

 

I did an orientation session for a new crew last week.  The most strenuous suggestion from the brainstorming was a hike at the local state park.  It does have some great trails and would be a nice opportunity for both rock climbing and hiking.  However, I tossed out the 100 mile NPS challenge for the North Country Trail, any one of the hundreds of miles of bike trails in the area, kayaking/canoeing from sandbar to whitewater. just to prime the pump.  I haven't heard back from them, I think they got overwhelmed at the myriad of potential opportunities out there to get involved in.  The Mrs. will be doing 3 major kayak trips this year and wants to do the 100 mile hike challenge as well.  With the hike challenge, we've decided to put off Isle Royal until fall when the crowds thin out.


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#30 chrisking0997

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 08:03 AM

lifes gonna hit these kids hard if they think taking 10 minutes to fill out an app and 30 minutes to take an online course is too much of a hassle and is taking the fun out of everything.   Or are we saying theres more to their complaint than that?


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#31 qwazse

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 08:18 AM

lifes gonna hit these kids hard if they think taking 10 minutes to fill out an app and 30 minutes to take an online course is too much of a hassle and is taking the fun out of everything.   Or are we saying theres more to their complaint than that?

 

They already filled out the app for ASM, they already took one YPT. Plus, for Sunday school or whatever youth program they may volunteer at, they are filling out 3 sets of paperwork and taking another state-mandated program. Plus, they've registered to vote, filled out selective service applications, applied for college, secured loans and scholarships, etc ...

 

They can plan an event in 30 minutes. So, what you effectively are asking them to do is to plan one less event for their crew in what time they have allocated for scouting.

 

At some point it stops sounding like they are seeking truth, fairness, and adventure in the world and just shielding big wigs from litigation.


Edited by qwazse, 13 April 2016 - 08:19 AM.

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#32 Krampus

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 08:33 AM

Yesterday a newly-young-adult venturer said "BSA has taken the fun out of being a young adult scouter."   I'd like to hear from others "in the trenches" with dual registered young adults. Maybe I'm just in a bubble of negativity.

 

FWIW this young man is "the go to guy" for instrumental back-up at his school musical. His older brothers are always welcome to drop by and pitch in there, nobody there asks them to fill out paperwork to serve along side these impressionable youth.

 

They simply don't have the patience for this sort of thing.

 

YPT is less than 30 mins. The application is five minutes to fill out and then give it to the membership person to bring to council. Med form, if not done, is 5 minutes to fill out.

 

If these kids have even filled out ONE college application they've spent 10 times the amount of time doing that than they will spend on getting "street legal" to be an adult on a BSA event.

 

They're going to get seriously disappointed when they hit those instant gratification relievers that are DMV and IRS.


Edited by Krampus, 13 April 2016 - 08:33 AM.

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#33 Stosh

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 08:58 AM

Patience used to be a virtue, now like common sense it's merely a historical phenomenon.


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#34 qwazse

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 09:08 AM

...

 

They're going to get seriously disappointed when they hit those instant gratification relievers that are DMV and IRS.

So @Krampus, how about gathering all of your trained 18 y.o. ASMs and asking them how many would feel like taking the Venturing YPT. ... Right now, or you'll drop them from the charter?

 

The DMV get's you decent drivers and vehicles, the IRS gets you armed forces, pictures of other planets, and payments on yesteryear's social programs.

What does Venturing YPT get you that Boy Scout YPT does not? Especially for a youth who's already been venturing for 4 years?

 

Patience used to be a virtue, now like common sense it's merely a historical phenomenon.

I agree, but ...

This has nothing to do with patience. This has to do with valuing the time people have to spend on your specialty program.


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#35 Krampus

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 09:56 AM

So @Krampus, how about gathering all of your trained 18 y.o. ASMs and asking them how many would feel like taking the Venturing YPT. ... Right now, or you'll drop them from the charter?

 

The DMV get's you decent drivers and vehicles, the IRS gets you armed forces, pictures of other planets, and payments on yesteryear's social programs.

What does Venturing YPT get you that Boy Scout YPT does not? Especially for a youth who's already been venturing for 4 years?

 

It gets you an adult who realizes that, once you turn 18, the world is not going to wipe your chin and give you a goodnight kiss every night.

 

It teaches them that everything worthwhile (DMV) or required (IRS) has a process. You must follow that process and endure a little pain in order to reap the benefits your time investment.

 

It teaches them that, as an adult, saying "Dude, your girlfriend is hot." to his nearly 18 Venturing friend is considered by adult YPT standards to be wrong...very wrong. Taking adult YPT welcomes him to being an adult and taking the adult courses...as silly as they are.

 

Now, if they wanted to argue the logic and reasoning behind taking IOLS when they are an Eagle Scout, staffed Rayado and summer camp, taught first year Scouts for seven years and have the outdoor skills of Les Stroud, well then, I am all ears. I agree that would be a total waste of time.

 

But 30 mins to click through some ridiculous scenarios and get a certificate? C'mon, they spend more time posting to Instagram than it would take to do YPT.

 

Better question...why should WE have to take a course that never changes having taken it 6-8 times over the last 12-16 years?


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#36 RememberSchiff

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 07:44 AM


Better question...why should WE have to take a course that never changes having taken it 6-8 times over the last 12-16 years?

 

Well there was at least one MAJOR change to YP in the last 12-16 years. Initially, we were told to first report abuse incidents to the Scout Executive even though there were examples of how that had failed. It took a few years (lawsuits) to change, but finally call police first!

 

IMHO, YP training for youth educators/coaches/volunteers will likely become state regulated and replace CO, Little League, BSA ... YP's.  Like a driver's license we will need to take a training course (just once!), pass a test, issued a photo ID , and pay a registration fee. Maybe it will be an endorsement on a driver license.


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#37 qwazse

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 07:54 AM

... It teaches them that, as an adult, saying "Dude, your girlfriend is hot." to his nearly 18 Venturing friend is considered by adult YPT standards to be wrong...very wrong. Taking adult YPT welcomes him to being an adult and taking the adult courses...as silly as they are. ....

Oh, how cute. You actually think that is the takeaway from the Venturing YPT course.

Suppose it's there, albeit implicitly, then, why isn't it in the Boy Scout YPT?

 

If BSA really cares, why aren't mandatory certifications for Venturing's videos about date rape and sexual harassment required before accepting a youth application?

 

 

...  But 30 mins to click through some ridiculous scenarios and get a certificate? C'mon, they spend more time posting to Instagram than it would take to do YPT.

 

Better question...why should WE have to take a course that never changes having taken it 6-8 times over the last 12-16 years?

 

You might be on to something. Maybe the YPT course should include a photo capture feature so the student can embed an instagram-ish picture of them taking the course on the certificate! :D


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#38 Krampus

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 08:29 AM

Oh, how cute. You actually think that is the takeaway from the Venturing YPT course.
Suppose it's there, albeit implicitly, then, why isn't it in the Boy Scout YPT?


I've seen the youth YPT. It is not as strict or topical as the adult YPT. That's the point: To hammer home that a simple statement a youth might have made when he was 17, can get him in a boat load of trouble if uttered when he's 18.
 

If BSA really cares, why aren't mandatory certifications for Venturing's videos about date rape and sexual harassment required before accepting a youth application? You might be on to something. Maybe the YPT course should include a photo capture feature so the student can embed an instagram-ish picture of them taking the course on the certificate! :D


I am not going to defend BSA training. ;) I would certainly put those issues in ANY Scout-based training for teens...especially coed Crews.

 

My point is that once you are 18 the Us considers you an adult. Why have 18 year old Crew members take a course designed for younger members and not the one all OTHER adults take?

 

If he gets in trouble the court system certainly won't think he's a minor. They will treat him as an adult. So should BSA.


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#39 RememberSchiff

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 08:44 AM

If he gets in trouble the court system certainly won't think he's a minor. They will treat him as an adult. So should BSA.

 

Would that the BSA treat ALL of us who are over 18 as adults!  :mad:


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#40 Stosh

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 12:41 PM

Every year I do YPT after having had a background check to get into scouting,  Every other year I do YPT,  Every time I change adult positions, I get a background check and now Venturing YPT every other year. Every time I connect up with a church youth group, I get a background check, and every time I take that group on an extended trip I get another background check. 

 

One would think that after 45 years of this, they would have a better system.  But they don't  :)  No big deal. Not my money, not my problem.  Any youth organization that requires me to pay for my own background checks gets passed by and there have been plenty of them over the years.  If the state adopts it's own certification and BSA doesn't pick up the tab on it.  I'm out of the scouting business immediately.  Same for the churches and other community youth programs I work with. 

 

I'll be down to volunteering for the Salvation Army and Red Cross only, but that can keep me busy too.  Red Cross has youth programs as well.  And by the way, there was a background check to work with the Red Cross too.  :)  I'm waiting for a background check on bell ringing.  Haven't seen anything on that yet.  :)

 

This summer I'll be doing volunteer work for the community garden, I don't think there's a background check for pulling weeds... :rolleyes:


Edited by Stosh, 14 April 2016 - 12:43 PM.

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