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#81 Stosh

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 11:37 AM

You're fooling yourself believing that "take care of your scouts" isn't your adult vision, expectation or goal.

 

Barry

No I'm not, the disconnect comes in HOW that vision is applied.  How the boys are being taken care of can be one vision for the adults and a totally different vision for the boys.  This is the area when one moves out of leadership into management. 
The adult vision is to have mixed patrols, but the boys want to hang out with their gang of buddies.  Two different visions.....  Mistake was made on the SPL election and the boys will suffer for the next 6 months or even a year, but the boys want a do-over RIGHT NOW!  Two different visions....  This goes on and on and I hear it all the time on the forum.  The vision of the boys trumps the adults when it comes to scouting and passes the Safety first, Look and act like a Scout, Have fun requirements.  Are those rules adult made?  Yep, but I have yet to run across a scout that doesn't think they are a good idea.

 

And as far as it being MY vision or goal?  A long time ago it was, but over the years, the boys have made it their own and pass it along because they know that it guarantees their leadership in the unit.  It is the one thing that forces adults out of the process.  If I'm taking care of my boys, the adults have no excuse to interfere.  They know it works and they apply it liberally to all aspects of scouting.  I have also had many occasions where the boys have told me it works at school and at home too.  Imagine that.


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#82 Eagledad

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 12:31 PM

No I'm not, the disconnect comes in HOW that vision is applied.  How the boys are being taken care of can be one vision for the adults and a totally different vision for the boys.  This is the area when one moves out of leadership into management. 

 

THAT"S EXACTLY RIGHT!

 

AS you just pointed out, adults stepping in isn't wrong and neither is using an adult expectations for guiding scouts. Truth is the scouts would be lost without adult intervention and expectations at some point in their scouting career to set their direction. As MattR was pointing out, there is a trial and error process where everyone is learning to find the most efficient and least adult intrusive method to accomplishing the task of guiding scouts toward the vision. It takes time and humility.

 

And as far as it being MY vision or goal?  A long time ago it was, but over the years, the boys have made it their own and pass it along because they know that it guarantees their leadership in the unit. 

 

Yes, that is of course is another adult goal, but the vision has to start somewhere. An 11 year old boy could care less about joining a club to take care of others. Boys this age want fun and adventure. not touchy feely discussions with other boys. The outdoors and patrol method were created by the founders to guide young boys to learn from the decisions made during fun and adventurous activities to grow into men of character and citizens of integrity. They learn to change their behavior habits as they take on responsibilities during their fun and adventure. They don't even really have to know the adult vision or visions, they just practice the behavior until they make a conscious decision to change because the behavior makes sense. 

 

It is the one thing that forces adults out of the process.  If I'm taking care of my boys, the adults have no excuse to interfere.  They know it works and they apply it liberally to all aspects of scouting.  I have also had many occasions where the boys have told me it works at school and at home too.  Imagine that.

 

Yes, yes, yes. The vision starts somewhere from someone and it is to be nurtured and encouraged through trial and error until the scouts have the maturity to take on the trial and error of the vision themselves. You can't just throw boys in a group and expect them to have a vision of character and know how to get it. Call it what you want, Living the Oath and Law", "Servant leadership", "take care of your scouts"; none of that is instantaneous or easy. It is a challenge for adults to implement in the program and a challenge for scouts to master.

 

My point is telling everyone that any adult intervention is corruptive to the program is a misstatement and turns away those seeking help because we all know that adults do have to intervene somewhere to help the scouts grow. The key to the best boy run programs is how adults can step in with the least disruption to the patrol method with the most influence to developing their growth. 

 

That is the advice being asked of experienced scouters. 

 

Barry


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#83 Eagledad

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 02:21 PM

And as far as it being MY vision or goal?  A long time ago it was, but over the years, the boys have made it their own and pass it along because they know that it guarantees their leadership in the unit.  It is the one thing that forces adults out of the process.  If I'm taking care of my boys, the adults have no excuse to interfere.  They know it works and they apply it liberally to all aspects of scouting.  I have also had many occasions where the boys have told me it works at school and at home too.  Imagine that.

After reading this again, it occurs to me that you despise the BSA program so much that you have lost much of the knowledge to really understand the program. You obviously don't realize that the scouts are suppose to eventually accept the vision as their own. And you seem to think that adults aren't expected to step back as the scouts mature, but that is part of the BSA program. You think you are being profound, but you are just doing what the BSA ask.

 

As a result, your leadership is likely more adult run than most Scoutmasters in mature BSA boy run troops. You simply don't know of the tools available to you for building a high performance patrol method program. Let me show you what I mean; lets assume that each of us start with two identical groups of boys of identical ages and experiences. I believe my group will be a functioning independent patrol in half the time of your group with only a 3rd adult guidance from me. How will I do that? We've agreed that scouts require some intervention to provide them the knowledge for moving forward. I will simply give them the Scout Handbook, SPL Handbook, PL Handbook and the BSA Field Book, which have enough vision and guidance in the contents to start a functional working patrol with very minimal adult guidance. It's all there, roles and responsibilities of each member, how to cook, what to eat, how to start fires, set up tents, run meetings, how to dress, and on and on. 

 

Most of my guidance will likely be requested by the scouts and in the areas that require some on-the-spot adult wisdom for clairty. Most of the request are usually scouts requesting guidance on character challenges. That is usually the time when suggestions like "just take or your boys"or " what does the law say?" helps encourage scouts through their challenges. But for the most part, the patrol method and operation details that are insequential to the Aims are left up to the scouts and their handbooks. Those handbooks make the 100 yard separation easier to acquire. 

 

All I'm saying is that adults who use the tools provided by the BSA are likely less adult run.

 

Barry


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#84 Stosh

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 02:26 PM

 

No I'm not, the disconnect comes in HOW that vision is applied.  How the boys are being taken care of can be one vision for the adults and a totally different vision for the boys.  This is the area when one moves out of leadership into management. 

 

THAT"S EXACTLY RIGHT!

 

AS you just pointed out, adults stepping in isn't wrong and neither is using an adult expectations for guiding scouts.

 

Not following here.   How is using an adult expectation for guiding scouts not adult-led?

 

Truth is the scouts would be lost without adult intervention and expectations at some point in their scouting career to set their direction.

 

Again, the boys have been lured into scouting with the promise of fun and adventure, they don't need adult intervention and expectations to tell them what that fun and adventure is.  They have a pretty good idea what that is even before they register.  What is often harped about on the forum is the lack of older scouts sharing their vision of fun and adventure with their younger scouts.  Maybe once they get into the program the fun and adventure is replaced by adult expectations so there's no vision to pass on.  In my troops that door is always propped open to their initial vision of fun and adventure.  The logistics of the program, "helping other people at all times," insures there is no need for an adult vision or expectation, it's already spelled out in the Oath.

 

As MattR was pointing out, there is a trial and error process where everyone is learning to find the most efficient and least adult intrusive method to accomplishing the task of guiding scouts toward the vision. It takes time and humility.

 

Trial and error for whom?  The adults or the boys?  The purpose of scouting is defined without adult intervention.  The only time adult intervention is needed is when the boys aren't leading.  Someone's got to do it.  If the adults can't pass the leadership baton to the boys there's something wrong with the process.  I don't see the repeated interference and instruction and constant guidance of the adults anything other than adult led.  I guess everyone has their own definition of what boy leadership is all about.

 

And as far as it being MY vision or goal?  A long time ago it was, but over the years, the boys have made it their own and pass it along because they know that it guarantees their leadership in the unit. 

 

Yes, that is of course is another adult goal, but the vision has to start somewhere.

 

Every council and district has it's known boy led and adult led programs.  Long before a boy even comes into a troop choices have to be made based on different opportunities.  I provide an environment in which the boys will be allowed carte banche on how the unit will be led.  It goes hand in hand with the principle of adventure and fun.  Are those goals of adventure and fun defined by the boys' or the adults'?  I'm thinking that if the adults are guiding and mentoring, they might be the adults' vision and not the boys'  One of the major differences I suspect between the different approaches is that in my unit, the vision changes from year to year because the boys change from year to year..

 

An 11 year old boy could care less about joining a club to take care of others.

 

Obviously not, but if they wish to interact with the older boys, they better figure out that this club does take care of others because it promised to do so in the Scout Oath, that verbiage they had to memorize even before they joined.

 

Boys this age want fun and adventure. not touchy feely discussions with other boys.

 

No, boys this age want acceptance and a sense of belonging.  They want to feel they are valuable to those around them.  Some want to feel they have power to do good things.  Some really do care about others and want to be around them and help.  Others are still focused on narcissism and tend to be looking out only for themselves and what's best for them.  Still others want popularity because it validates who they are.  Fun and adventure is really quite a ways down the list.

 

The outdoors and patrol method were created by the founders to guide young boys to learn from the decisions made during fun and adventurous activities to grow into men of character and citizens of integrity. They learn to change their behavior habits as they take on responsibilities during their fun and adventure. They don't even really have to know the adult vision or visions, they just practice the behavior until they make a conscious decision to change because the behavior makes sense. 

 

It's different for me.  I get more traction out of the boys learning from other boys.  Since day one in their lives they have been told what to do, where to go and how to act by adults.  Now, for the first time, people of their own age and own position in life can instruct guide and empower without the world coming to an end, like the parent or teach says it will if they don't behave.  Under the premise of the Scout Oath, this experiment in youth, which has survived for 100 years, will not deteriorate down into the Lord of the Flies motif that every scouter Chicken Little says it will without constant adult intervention.  Very few adults with the "I gotta guide" mentality ever think that their ultimate job is to work oneself out of it.  

 

It is the one thing that forces adults out of the process.  If I'm taking care of my boys, the adults have no excuse to interfere.  They know it works and they apply it liberally to all aspects of scouting.  I have also had many occasions where the boys have told me it works at school and at home too.  Imagine that.

 

Yes, yes, yes. The vision starts somewhere from someone and it is to be nurtured and encouraged through trial and error until the scouts have the maturity to take on the trial and error of the vision themselves. You can't just throw boys in a group and expect them to have a vision of character and know how to get it. Call it what you want, Living the Oath and Law", "Servant leadership", "take care of your scouts"; none of that is instantaneous or easy. It is a challenge for adults to implement in the program and a challenge for scouts to master.

 

Nope, but the boys who have already walked that walk can be the ones to guide them, it doesn't mean the adults have to do it.   By the way, the original vision was established by BP, the rest of us are only passing it along.  By the time the boys have the Oath and Law memorized., they are well on their way without any other adult "vision" to interfere.

 

My point is telling everyone that any adult intervention is corruptive to the program is a misstatement and turns away those seeking help because we all know that adults do have to intervene somewhere to help the scouts grow. The key to the best boy run programs is how adults can step in with the least disruption to the patrol method with the most influence to developing their growth. 

 

That is the advice being asked of experienced scouters. 

 

And in the interest of Scouting, let us agree to disagree.

 

Barry

 


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#85 Stosh

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 02:43 PM

After reading this again, it occurs to me that you despise the BSA program so much that you have lost much of the knowledge to really understand the program. You obviously don't realize that the scouts are suppose to eventually accept the vision as their own. And you seem to think that adults aren't expected to step back as the scouts mature, but that is part of the BSA program. You think you are being profound, but you are just doing what the BSA ask.

 

As a result, your leadership is likely more adult run than most Scoutmasters in mature BSA boy run troops. You simply don't know of the tools available to you for building a high performance patrol method program. Let me show you what I mean; lets assume that each of us start with two identical groups of boys of identical ages and experiences. I believe my group will be a functioning independent patrol in half the time of your group with only a 3rd adult guidance from me. How will I do that? We've agreed that scouts require some intervention to provide them the knowledge for moving forward. I will simply give them the Scout Handbook, SPL Handbook, PL Handbook and the BSA Field Book, which have enough vision and guidance in the contents to start a functional working patrol with very minimal adult guidance. It's all there, roles and responsibilities of each member, how to cook, what to eat, how to start fires, set up tents, run meetings, how to dress, and on and on. 

 

Most of my guidance will likely be requested by the scouts and in the areas that require some on-the-spot adult wisdom for clairty. Most of the request are usually scouts requesting guidance on character challenges. That is usually the time when suggestions like "just take or your boys"or " what does the law say?" helps encourage scouts through their challenges. But for the most part, the patrol method and operation details that are insequential to the Aims are left up to the scouts and their handbooks. Those handbooks make the 100 yard separation easier to acquire. 

 

All I'm saying is that adults who use the tools provided by the BSA are likely less adult run.

 

Barry

 

It's rather strange that I'm the one who is asked to start new units, be involved on Cub, Scouting and Venturing levels, am sought out by other organization in the community as well as be available to church youth groups of which I'm not even affiliated.  I somehow get such a reputation because of my disdain for the BSA program principles?

 

My Eagle scouts are SM trained and WB trained BEFORE the go off to college? because of my disdain for the program?

 

My Eagle scouts are asked to speak at the Council's major fund raiser along with nationally known key note speakers because I have a disdain for the program?

 

I have young men and women going into the ministry to fulfill their mission of working for the betterment of other because of my disdain for the BSA program?

 

I help young men and women who's next step is Juvenile Hall and have been abandoned by their families and they turn themselves around and get their HS diploma and go on to college because of my disdain for the BSA program?

 

Sorry, I follow the principles of the BSA program well beyond the boundaries of the patrol-method out into the community.

 

So, I guess others have their way of doing things and I have mine.  The neighboring District wants me to start a new Venturing Crew, they must have heard of my disdain for the program.....

 

I'm sure I'm somewhere down near the bottom of the list and will have to settle for me anyway.

 

I'm not worried.  We are not all judged the same.  Some see, hear and understand others don't.  Been a problem for humanity for thousands of years.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#86 Eagledad

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 03:23 PM

Not following here.   How is using an adult expectation for guiding scouts not adult-led?

 

How is the vision of "take care of your boys" not adult?

 

Again, the boys have been lured into scouting with the promise of fun and adventure, they don't need adult intervention and expectations to tell them what that fun and adventure is. 

 

Adults don't give them intervention of fun and adventure, the BSA does that.

 

Trial and error for whom?  The adults or the boys? 

 

Both, adults use trial and error for learning how to step back and the scouts use it to learn how to step forward. 

 

I provide an environment in which the boys will be allowed carte banche on how the unit will be led.  It goes hand in hand with the principle of adventure and fun.  

 

Yep, most troops do.

 

Obviously not, but if they wish to interact with the older boys, they better figure out that this club does take care of others because it promised to do so in the Scout Oath, that verbiage they had to memorize even before they joined.

 

Yep, "take care of your scouts" comes from the Oath and Law.

 

Fun and adventure is really quite a ways down the list.

 

Really! Try recruiting boys you accuse of being narcissist and see where that gets you. In fact, take your list to the Webelos and ask what they want from the troop program. 

 

It's different for me.  I get more traction out of the boys learning from other boys. 

 

Yep, boys learn most from older scouts.

 

Nope, but the boys who have already walked that walk can be the ones to guide them, it doesn't mean the adults have to do it.

 

Who told them the walk "take care of your scouts"?

 

And in the interest of Scouting, let us agree to disagree.

 

It seems we do agree.

 


Edited by Eagledad, 01 March 2016 - 03:47 PM.

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#87 Eagledad

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 03:31 PM

 

 

So, I guess others have their way of doing things and I have mine.  The neighboring District wants me to start a new Venturing Crew, they must have heard of my disdain for the program.....

 

 

OK, it's just seems you keep describing the BSA program when you brag about stosh scouts. I guess well done is in order.

 

Barry


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#88 MattR

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 04:02 PM

I think it has something to do with drinking espresso from a tin cup with fancy 19th century etching on the outside. :?

Steampunk is a mix of the wild west and scifi. The original steampunk was the Wild Wild West. Cowboys and Aliens and the remake of the Wild Wild West are more recent versions. I loved all those shows. What could be better to a 12 year old than a turbo charged steam engine shooting lasers at the bad guys?


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#89 skeptic

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 07:31 PM

Guess I loosened the hive of opinions.  That is good; hope it will stay in the realm of a Scouting Spirit molded discussion.  


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#90 HICO_Eagle

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 02:39 PM

After decades of military training and leadership as well as unit-level adult Scouter leadership, the first thing I do when encountering quotes from business school "leadership experts" is skip to something more productive like a toenail fungus commercial  :p .  Between another "leadership manifesto" and week-old fish, I'll take the week-old fish (preferably quadruple-wrapped in plastic) because I can at least bait crab traps with the fish (I'd take the manifesto if I had a bird cage but I don't).

 

I don't blame the new Wood Badge program for everything but from what I've seen on the periphery, it has as much value as an essay from Karl Marx on capitalism's virtues.  In our council, WB hasn't been some super-elite society -- at least, it didn't stop them from asking me to teach at University of Scouting, participate on council-level committees, or providing advice to the SE on restructuring some of the program.  The curriculum I saw led me to believe WB had as much value for me as IOLS would have after 3 decades of camping and leading in Scouts at multiple levels.

 

I don't pretend to know-it-all and eagerly take classes that will extend my knowledge or understanding but I'm just not enthused about wasting 2 weekends or 2 days or 2 hours of my life on something whose major benefit seemed to be to make me "more eligible for a Silver Beaver nomination".  I joined Scouting as an adult for the kids, not for me.

 

@TAHAWK, so in the old days of more outdoor skills and patrol method, how was leadership taught?

 

In my experience, it was taught by getting the kids to do things.  We had mixed age patrols so older Scouts instructed the younger Scouts and younger Scouts observed the older Scouts.  In some key activities, adults might review the Scout plans for adequacy (less likely after Scouts had proven themselves) and offer constructive critiques but it was up to the Scouts to plan the campouts or activities, do the leg work, organize menus and transportation and budget, etc.  Adults met in committee but I couldn't tell you much of what they did beyond drive the vehicles, buy the camp fuel or propane, and file the paperwork (when I was a Scout).  When I first got involved as an adult, it was much of the same except we did some of the legwork for the Scouts in terms of researching costs and facilities for activities.  The boys who were Scouts while I was an ASM and SM learned to lead by DOing.  They followed and they led and they learned along the way.

 

Most boys (and girls) aren't stupid -- they can see who gets things done and they'll even watch to see HOW they get things done if they know there won't be any crutches.


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#91 TAHAWK

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 07:14 PM

Based  only on experience, at least from 1954 - 1967, there was leadership training to be run by SM and SPL in the troop; one day district level leadership training, and a one week (really five-day) leadership course put on by Council.  The training materials for the district and council-level courses were primarily based on active applications of the information from Bill's 1950 edition of the Handbook for Patrol Leaders.  Of course, we thought Bill knew his stuff, not understanding that he was pumping out toe fungus and week-old fish.

 

Terrible staff overcomes even prime training material, and many here seem to have been "bitten" when young by terrible staff.  My SM , in an unusual behavior for him, responded to complains about one course by saying the guy in charge "Can make kids hate chocolate."


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