No I'm not, the disconnect comes in HOW that vision is applied. How the boys are being taken care of can be one vision for the adults and a totally different vision for the boys. This is the area when one moves out of leadership into management.
THAT"S EXACTLY RIGHT!
AS you just pointed out, adults stepping in isn't wrong and neither is using an adult expectations for guiding scouts.
Not following here. How is using an adult expectation for guiding scouts not adult-led?
Truth is the scouts would be lost without adult intervention and expectations at some point in their scouting career to set their direction.
Again, the boys have been lured into scouting with the promise of fun and adventure, they don't need adult intervention and expectations to tell them what that fun and adventure is. They have a pretty good idea what that is even before they register. What is often harped about on the forum is the lack of older scouts sharing their vision of fun and adventure with their younger scouts. Maybe once they get into the program the fun and adventure is replaced by adult expectations so there's no vision to pass on. In my troops that door is always propped open to their initial vision of fun and adventure. The logistics of the program, "helping other people at all times," insures there is no need for an adult vision or expectation, it's already spelled out in the Oath.
As MattR was pointing out, there is a trial and error process where everyone is learning to find the most efficient and least adult intrusive method to accomplishing the task of guiding scouts toward the vision. It takes time and humility.
Trial and error for whom? The adults or the boys? The purpose of scouting is defined without adult intervention. The only time adult intervention is needed is when the boys aren't leading. Someone's got to do it. If the adults can't pass the leadership baton to the boys there's something wrong with the process. I don't see the repeated interference and instruction and constant guidance of the adults anything other than adult led. I guess everyone has their own definition of what boy leadership is all about.
And as far as it being MY vision or goal? A long time ago it was, but over the years, the boys have made it their own and pass it along because they know that it guarantees their leadership in the unit.
Yes, that is of course is another adult goal, but the vision has to start somewhere.
Every council and district has it's known boy led and adult led programs. Long before a boy even comes into a troop choices have to be made based on different opportunities. I provide an environment in which the boys will be allowed carte banche on how the unit will be led. It goes hand in hand with the principle of adventure and fun. Are those goals of adventure and fun defined by the boys' or the adults'? I'm thinking that if the adults are guiding and mentoring, they might be the adults' vision and not the boys' One of the major differences I suspect between the different approaches is that in my unit, the vision changes from year to year because the boys change from year to year..
An 11 year old boy could care less about joining a club to take care of others.
Obviously not, but if they wish to interact with the older boys, they better figure out that this club does take care of others because it promised to do so in the Scout Oath, that verbiage they had to memorize even before they joined.
Boys this age want fun and adventure. not touchy feely discussions with other boys.
No, boys this age want acceptance and a sense of belonging. They want to feel they are valuable to those around them. Some want to feel they have power to do good things. Some really do care about others and want to be around them and help. Others are still focused on narcissism and tend to be looking out only for themselves and what's best for them. Still others want popularity because it validates who they are. Fun and adventure is really quite a ways down the list.
The outdoors and patrol method were created by the founders to guide young boys to learn from the decisions made during fun and adventurous activities to grow into men of character and citizens of integrity. They learn to change their behavior habits as they take on responsibilities during their fun and adventure. They don't even really have to know the adult vision or visions, they just practice the behavior until they make a conscious decision to change because the behavior makes sense.
It's different for me. I get more traction out of the boys learning from other boys. Since day one in their lives they have been told what to do, where to go and how to act by adults. Now, for the first time, people of their own age and own position in life can instruct guide and empower without the world coming to an end, like the parent or teach says it will if they don't behave. Under the premise of the Scout Oath, this experiment in youth, which has survived for 100 years, will not deteriorate down into the Lord of the Flies motif that every scouter Chicken Little says it will without constant adult intervention. Very few adults with the "I gotta guide" mentality ever think that their ultimate job is to work oneself out of it.
It is the one thing that forces adults out of the process. If I'm taking care of my boys, the adults have no excuse to interfere. They know it works and they apply it liberally to all aspects of scouting. I have also had many occasions where the boys have told me it works at school and at home too. Imagine that.
Yes, yes, yes. The vision starts somewhere from someone and it is to be nurtured and encouraged through trial and error until the scouts have the maturity to take on the trial and error of the vision themselves. You can't just throw boys in a group and expect them to have a vision of character and know how to get it. Call it what you want, Living the Oath and Law", "Servant leadership", "take care of your scouts"; none of that is instantaneous or easy. It is a challenge for adults to implement in the program and a challenge for scouts to master.
Nope, but the boys who have already walked that walk can be the ones to guide them, it doesn't mean the adults have to do it. By the way, the original vision was established by BP, the rest of us are only passing it along. By the time the boys have the Oath and Law memorized., they are well on their way without any other adult "vision" to interfere.
My point is telling everyone that any adult intervention is corruptive to the program is a misstatement and turns away those seeking help because we all know that adults do have to intervene somewhere to help the scouts grow. The key to the best boy run programs is how adults can step in with the least disruption to the patrol method with the most influence to developing their growth.
That is the advice being asked of experienced scouters.
And in the interest of Scouting, let us agree to disagree.