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Question about Scoutmaster training.


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#1 hendrickms24

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 05:48 PM

My son is turning 18 at the end of March  and has told me he is willing to become an Assistant Scoutmaster. 

He has stated that he will help out with attending Camping trip but will limit his Troop meeting attendance. 

I fine with that and having him around on Campout will help me out a lot.  Heck, I have some AS that are no real help to me at all.   

My question is our District has classroom part (sorry forgot the name) of SM training in March before my Son turns 18.

Can he attend the train or does he have to wait until he is an adult?

 

Thanks.


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#2 qwazse

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 05:55 PM

Congratulations on having such a great son!

 

I think you're talking about Scoutmaster Essentials.

I would sign him up and let the District Trainer know what you're doing.  It makes sense that you want your ASM to be on the books as a trained leader as soon as his application can be accepted.

 

They should be able to credit your son for the course the day he takes it regardless of his birthday. Heck they credited one of my venturers for earning WB when she was 11! (I think her dad was more than willing to give her his beads as a crank gift!)


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#3 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 06:34 PM

What you suggest is one option.  But if your council does not have the mandatory "Trained" requirement, mine is still  phasing it in, then he would be good to go with just YPT.

 

IF your council is one with the mandatory training, then get him registered as UNIT SCOUTER RESERVE (92U is the code). That position was created specifically for 18-20 year olds who want to be active, but cannot get all of the training yet, and are too young to be committee members.


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#4 Stosh

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 10:43 AM

I'm with Eagle94-A1 on this.  Get him registered any way you can to get him in the door.  If he's allowed, I'd go for the training, but if not, go Eagle94-A1 route.  He doesn't need the ASM classification to function as one.  He can take the course as soon as it is offered after he's turned 18.  I'm thinking the council would go along with this approach with your son only months away from his 18th b-day.  Depends on their mood that day you ask.  :)


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#5 hendrickms24

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 01:43 PM

So worse case scenario is if they don't let him take Scoutmaster Essentials then Unit Scouter Reserve is what I will register him as.

 

Thanks for the help.


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#6 Krampus

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 01:53 PM

So worse case scenario is if they don't let him take Scoutmaster Essentials then Unit Scouter Reserve is what I will register him as.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Ask your District Training Chairman if your Eagle scout can test out of SM training. 

 

For example, my area requires IOLS and the Leader-specific training. IOLS is essentially the first year scout program rolled in to one weekend. Most good Eagles can do that with their eyes closed. My area allows us to test out. Leader-specific is the one training they may require a young man to take. Most won't let you test out unless you've been an SM before.


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#7 Stosh

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 02:26 PM

Thank your son for me.  I appreciate him taking his Eagle charge seriously.


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#8 Eagledad

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 03:14 PM

I don't think it's a problem taking the course, most instructors will let him sit in. It's a matter of getting credit. I think Eagle94's answer fixes the problem. As for testing out, I use to teach the course and don't remember any test to give. Plus, a lot of the information given isn't something even an Eagle Scout would have come across in his scouting experience. That's why the course is so painfully boring.

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#9 SSScout

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 09:52 PM

Eagledad:   Boring is as boring does....

If your IOLS team doesn't make the course at least worth "camping without kids" , then somebody else needs to try and "fun it up". 

 

IOLS  and the SLS indoors needs to be a time when the Scouter (1) can pretend to be a Scout and try to see the Scout stuff from the Scout's perspective, ( 2) Hear from folks who have "been there and done that"  and (3) get to share their own skills and questions (and answers?).   All that should make for an interesting day, I would hope. 

  I have taught some portion of the SLS and IOLS classes many times with other old timers, and never have we been told it was a "boring" experience.  Some folks do come away saying "ho hum" and most with a "thank you very much", but we always strive to " give value for your time".   And, truth be told, we  never limit ourselves to just the "official" curriculum.  We always find lots more stuff to hand out and talk about and elicit any and all personal material from the participants.  

I would never see the need (?) to "test out".  There is always something to be learned, if only to find out that one has been blessed in being ahead of the game in my personal experience.  


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#10 walk in the woods

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 08:55 AM

Technically, he doesn't need any training or to even register to help out on campouts assuming your are over 21. From the G2SS: Two-deep leadership on all outings required. A minimum of two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a participating Scout’s parent, or another adult is required for all trips and outings. One of these adults must be 21 years of age or older.
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#11 Eagledad

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 09:00 AM

Eagledad:   Boring is as boring does....
If your IOLS team doesn't make the course at least worth "camping without kids" , then somebody else needs to try and "fun it up". 


Council used our district as an example of doing that very thing.

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#12 qwazse

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 06:24 AM

@SSScout and @Eagledad, the OP was referring to the 'classroom' training, not IOLS. And the question was not if he should, but if he could. I see no reason why not -- considering there are limited opportunities for that course throughout the year. Get the boy trained before he goes off to college or war, and fitting things like this into his schedule will be difficult.
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#13 Stosh

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 07:19 AM

....and by the way, it sounds rather hypocritical on the part of the Council to say no to someone who wants training.  They have enough trouble getting people to take it in the first place.


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#14 Eagledad

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 07:45 AM

@SSScout and @Eagledad, the OP was referring to the 'classroom' training, not IOLS. And the question was not if he should, but if he could. I see no reason why not -- considering there are limited opportunities for that course throughout the year. Get the boy trained before he goes off to college or war, and fitting things like this into his schedule will be difficult.

Yes, the classroom part is what I was responding to with the OP because I used to teach it. I don't think anyone would care if he sat in. As for the SSScouts IOLS comment, I didn't think it worth correcting him since it wasn't part of the discussion.

 

Barry


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#15 SSScout

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 08:05 PM

My apologies for expanding the discussion unintentionally. "As usual", I thought the discussion had swerved into other, somewhat connected topics.

The SLS classroom part also often suffers from the "Official" only training. It can also be flat table listen to me lecture boring. The trainers (who might want to take Trainers Edge if offered in Council) are well urged to bring out their experiences and encourage the participants to share their own "time in the trenches" as appropriate.
When I was last called to help with the SLS training, both Cub and Scoutmaster, I was disappointed to note the curriculum had been cut significantly. See the appropriate threads here for details. The reason seemed to be (1) deal only with what SMs are officially responsible for (cut out discussion of finance, for instance) and (2) It was "too long" before.

By all means, anyone eager to be trained and Be A Scouter should attend.
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#16 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 07:53 AM

A few comments.

 

1)  Specific training, aka classroom training, doesn't have a test out. I taught both the pre-2015 and the current, 2015 version and the latest has left out a SIGNIFICANT portion of the pre-2015 version, and it still doesn't compare to older versions. Because Specific is suppose to be placed into SCOUTNET, I do not know if it will allow a "youth" to have that training. KEEP THE TRAINING CARD just in case ( all caps are emphasis)

 

2) IOLS does allow a test out option. When we did it in my district, it is a one day, pass or fail, event. At the moment we have a 100% pass rate, but only 2 adults have done that option. 1 was prior military, 1 was a youth staffer on the IOLS course I taught (his dad, who replaced me as training chair, didn't want to give him credit for IOLS as he thought it may appear to be showing favoritism to his son. Hence he made his son do the test out with other leaders present.)

 

3)  I've used folks as staff who I knew had the knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience to teach IOLS, EVEN IF THEY DID NOT TAKE THE IOLS COURSE. I think the Scouter who has been to Philmont 3 times, or the WB 3 beader who also worked on summer camp staff as a youth and is an MBC for several outdoor MBs can teach these basic courses without having to go through them. Let them teach, and get credit at the same time.

 

 

4) Does anyone remember when national made the big push on training records on SCOUTNET, but the powers that be only thought about using codes for the then current training? Or how at one point national was trying to make everyone redo training every time the name of the course changes?

 

One of the things my DE at the time told me to do because of the above, and I still do it to this day, is for every class I teach, also list me as a student, and issue a card to myself. That way I am always "current" in my training, and I don't have to deal with any headaches getting records up to date.


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#17 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 07:58 AM

When I was last called to help with the SLS training, both Cub and Scoutmaster, I was disappointed to note the curriculum had been cut significantly. See the appropriate threads here for details. The reason seemed to be (1) deal only with what SMs are officially responsible for (cut out discussion of finance, for instance) and (2) It was "too long" before.

 

 

 

ROTFL!

 

Obviously those complaining Specific Training is too long have never gone through the old SMF. 1 Full Day mixed classroom and outdoors, 1 night time classroom that incorporated a model meeting, and one full weekend ( Friday thru Sunday) camp out. It was spread out over a month, and you were "encouraged" to have a patrol meeting in there too.


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#18 Stosh

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 08:36 AM

For ten years I taught Webelos outdoor training when it incorporated an overnight.  Once they cut the program so there was no overnight, I stopped.  When one has a ton of Webelos leaders who had never spent a night outdoors under canvas and they were expected to take a group of young boys out into the woods to do that????  I could no longer justify in my mind the validity of the training.  It was time to move on.

 

The cutting of training to make it convenient to the participants is to the point where having training is really just a legal term, not anything of any real value in terms of gaining any sort of valuable expertise on the subject.

 

 When was the last time anyone taught a class to adults or to scouts on how to sharpen an ax?  Can anyone tell me why a full ax, and 3/4 ax, a hand ax and a belt ax are all sharpened differently?  Probably not, because BSA no longer teaches the use of axes anymore.  Don't have time.  :)

 

Oh, by the way, the last time I used an ax was back around Thanksgiving time, so it's no longer an everyday tool for me, maybe only once every couple of months.


Edited by Stosh, 12 January 2016 - 08:38 AM.

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#19 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 09:25 AM

 When was the last time anyone taught a class to adults or to scouts on how to sharpen an ax?  Can anyone tell me why a full ax, and 3/4 ax, a hand ax and a belt ax are all sharpened differently?  Probably not, because BSA no longer teaches the use of axes anymore.  Don't have time.  :)

 

Funny you mentioned this. When I last did IOLS, I reviewed both the syllabus AND then current BSA handbook. A LOT OF BASIC INFORMATION WAS MISSING FROM BOTH! (emphasis)  The instructors and I got together and reviewed what was missing, and sources to get them. A lot of that missing info we included came from previous BSHBs and field books. A few things I found online which I liked better. To include this info, we created a pamphlet to be handed out.

 

For axe usage, we used an circa 1950s USFS pamphlet to give additional info.


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#20 Eagledad

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 10:23 AM

For ten years I taught Webelos outdoor training when it incorporated an overnight.  Once they cut the program so there was no overnight, I stopped.  When one has a ton of Webelos leaders who had never spent a night outdoors under canvas and they were expected to take a group of young boys out into the woods to do that????  I could no longer justify in my mind the validity of the training.  It was time to move on.

 

The cutting of training to make it convenient to the participants is to the point where having training is really just a legal term, not anything of any real value in terms of gaining any sort of valuable expertise on the subject.

 

 When was the last time anyone taught a class to adults or to scouts on how to sharpen an ax?  Can anyone tell me why a full ax, and 3/4 ax, a hand ax and a belt ax are all sharpened differently?  Probably not, because BSA no longer teaches the use of axes anymore.  Don't have time.  :)

I'm not sure how much weight a retired scouters opinion should carry when discussing how much weekend free time a young parent with a full time job should be willing to give up just to volunteer for their son's unit. As a past member of the Council Training Committee and District membership committee, I can say a few hours away from home on weekends makes a big difference in the number of parents deciding to volunteer their time. And it is getting harder every year. A huge reason Webelos suffers from lack of volunteers is because Bear leaders who are usually mothers typically have no interest in camping, cooking and teaching Boy Scout skills. Now add to that angxiety a weekend away from their family for training in the hot or cold outdoors. Not surprisingly many quit hoping some dad will takeover. And many times none step up. 

 

I worked hard with the training committees trying to figure out ways of getting volunteers trained without taking so much of their family time. But it is a huge huge challenge. This doesn't help the Webelos problem so much, but maybe troops should to be expected to carry more of the training load. Our troop requires all new ASMs to attend the totin chit class with the new scouts which is taught by youth training team. I used to teach Woods Tools at IOLS and while I used the totin chit lesson plan, it was really more of an introduction because schedule didn't permit thorough training. Not to mention additional instruction from instructors who had specific skills and knowledge beyond published manuals like sharpening a 3/4 ax. 

 

The demands of parents today are a huge challenge for the BSA to qualify unskilled parents to take responsibility for other parents sons. No easy solution.

 

Barry


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