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#21 Gwaihir

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 04:22 PM

The books I found are from my own library; they are very old and some are out of print, but a great source is The World Encyclopedia of Flags, which has a lot of great images within it, along with The World Encyclopedia of Flags and Heraldry. However, the best source is not a book on flags, but a book on heraldry (of which I am an ardent enthusiast) called The Art of Heraldry by Arthur Charles Fox-Davies, which has hundreds of illustrations that give an excellent sense of medieval style and design. Obviously our den ensigns use the same image as the patch itself, but the shape and style of both the flag and banner are pure Middle-Age stuff. As we are "Ye Merry Archers," it seems fitting. :-)

 

Also here are some of my FAVORITE vintage images of patrol flags from LONG before I was born. They are clever, imaginative, and not too hard for boys to put together - I have a large store of vintage scouting images saved up, and these remain some of my absolute favorites:

 

perfect! thanks, I managed to snag all those books up used for a song.   I have no problem adding them to my own library either, I've always been interested in flags and heraldry.  Thanks again, I'll share some photos once the den finishes the project


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#22 The Latin Scot

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 08:43 PM

Boys of Scouting age will mirror the excitement their leader shows for an activity, especially Cub Scouts; if their Den Leader makes the project sound fun, and if he shows that he is having fun, then the boys will almost always become pick up on that excitement and start having fun.

 

I took two weeks before we got to our den flag project to talk about a few of the patrol names I had as a youth, some of the better or more ridiculous patrol names I have encountered, and about how thrilling it is to walk into pack meetings or camp adventures with a unique, brilliant banner flying high above us. I showed them pictures from books and online, and told them to get ready for the "big day" when we would choose our patch and name, and design our very own den flag. When the day of that den meeting finally arrived, I had a laptop with me and showed them dozens of different patches from scoutstuff.org and classb.com (seeing as Cub Scouting is still an adult-led program, I took the liberty of omitting many of the more absurd or questionable patches from the slide show :rolleyes:). By this point it was all I could do to contain their excitement, and by the end of the meeting, they were singing our den song and shouting our den yell - "We are the Merry Archers - aim high, BULL'S EYE!!!"

 

Did it take a big push on my part? Sure. But after that push came the ride, and the boys have made their patrol name a part of their identity, both as individuals and as a group. They ARE the Merry Archers! We use it as a theme in our meetings and activities; I tell stories of famous archers like Robin Hood and William Tell to inspire them, I use arrows as a metaphor to teach things like setting goals and aiming high, we discuss the "Arrows of Scouting," such as the Arrow of Light and the Order of the Arrow. All of this is represented in our flag and in our den name. 

 

Now, sure, some people might make a flag and come up with a name, and then it kind of dies there. But it can be so much more! Scouting is supposed to be a dynamic and imaginative program, isn't it? This kind of activity, of creating a sense of identity with all the trappings and ephemera that come with it, appeals to the very core of what it is to be a boy of that age, whether in 1916 or 2016. As leaders, we have to bring that out in them. And if some boys are harder to work with than others, well then, I welcome the challenge. We're Scouters, aren't we? We are prepared for the effort to yield the results.  ;)

 

The difference it makes is the difference you make of it. 


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#23 blw2

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 08:56 AM

Yes, you are probably right about the mirroring thing.  I'll admit that while I as ADL was excited and tried to encourage the idea, and hinted around about it, but I was not the DL.  Furthermore, our DL wasn't the most gung-ho about uniforming and stuff like this.  he did encourage the flag, but it's that extra mile tying it all together that was perhaps lost in our case. 

 

It sounds like you did a much better job laying the groundwork and then fanning the flames....


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#24 Gwaihir

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 02:19 PM

So I've got Tigers, and getting them to agree on stuff is like herding cats, but they did finally get into it and are now The Pikachus lol.  It's a start and I'm gonna roll with it.  Need to pick up materials to put the flag together.  I'm going to assemble the main Den flag, and then let each of them decorate and design their named streamer.    :) 


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#25 Stosh

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 03:15 PM

This isn't going to be a work of art, let the boys do the flag, forget the streamers.


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#26 JasonG172

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 03:35 PM

I used painters canvas drop cloth for ours. 


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#27 The Latin Scot

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 11:35 PM

Hmm. Usually, Cub Scouts younger than Webelos don't actually pick a name - they might go with the "Polar Bears" or the "Siberian Tigers," but it isn't until they are Webelos that they actually choose a name for themselves in practice of the Patrol Method during the Scouting Adventure adventure. Especially since Tiger Cubs are so small, they can get a lot out of simply building up their identity as Tigers. But since you have done so, and it can't hurt anything that you did, here are some great flag ideas for younger dens:

 

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Edited by The Latin Scot, 09 January 2017 - 11:37 PM.

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#28 Gwaihir

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 08:22 AM

This isn't going to be a work of art, let the boys do the flag, forget the streamers.

 

they were the ones looking forward to doing it.  


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#29 Stosh

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 10:36 AM

they were the ones looking forward to doing it.  

Am I missing something here?  The boys were the ones looking forward to having the adults make the flags?  If that be the case, by the time they get to Boy Scouts, will the adults still be doing it for them?

 

I find it difficult to believe that the boys are doing the flag making with the examples being put on the forum.

 

Personally, I like the ones that are either the pendant flags with the patrol emblem on it or something entirely hand-made by the boys themselves.

 

Tiger Cubs can't make their own flag?  Cut a 2' square of paint cloth fabric.  Have the boys lay their hands in latex paint and put a hand print on the flag.  When it dries, get a Sharpie and have them sign their names.  If they take on a new boy, just have him put his hand print on it and sign it.  Life's too short to worry about a flag "somebody else made".  It may last only 1 year, but, it's a flag every boy has a piece of ownership in.


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#30 Gwaihir

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 10:50 AM

Am I missing something here?  The boys were the ones looking forward to having the adults make the flags?  If that be the case, by the time they get to Boy Scouts, will the adults still be doing it for them?

 

I find it difficult to believe that the boys are doing the flag making with the examples being put on the forum.

 

Personally, I like the ones that are either the pendant flags with the patrol emblem on it or something entirely hand-made by the boys themselves.

 

Tiger Cubs can't make their own flag?  Cut a 2' square of paint cloth fabric.  Have the boys lay their hands in latex paint and put a hand print on the flag.  When it dries, get a Sharpie and have them sign their names.  If they take on a new boy, just have him put his hand print on it and sign it.  Life's too short to worry about a flag "somebody else made".  It may last only 1 year, but, it's a flag every boy has a piece of ownership in.

 

yes, you're missing something, I was talking specifically about them looking forward to making the streamers with their names on it, to which you said forget the streamers, thats all.  I agree I can let them make the flag, that's fine and gives them even more of a sense of ownership.  According to the committee tho, this flag goes with them straight through to Webelos, so maybe the committee is doing that wrong?  I'll keep it in mind that it only lasts a year.  


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#31 Stosh

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 11:58 AM

yes, you're missing something, I was talking specifically about them looking forward to making the streamers with their names on it, to which you said forget the streamers, thats all.  I agree I can let them make the flag, that's fine and gives them even more of a sense of ownership.  According to the committee tho, this flag goes with them straight through to Webelos, so maybe the committee is doing that wrong?  I'll keep it in mind that it only lasts a year.  

 

Okay, that makes sense now.  The streamers would do well to mark the history of anyone who was ever in that den and it may work to the benefit of them staying together in the den.   I'm thinking the hand prints would be more "permanent" to the den than taking a streamer off and putting it on a different den in the years to come. 

 

If one hems the edges and puts grommets in it, it will last longer and could even be a patrol flag when they go into Boy Scouts (unless some adults decide they can't stay together after they cross over).

 

Thanks for the clarification.


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#32 The Latin Scot

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 12:58 PM

The committee in this case has come up with a really strange ruling. The flag "goes with them straight through to Webelos?" No. Once they are Webelos, they have to come up with a name and flag as part of the Scouting Adventure adventure in practice for the patrol method, and this shouldn't be something they came up with back in Tigers. That's why I liked the idea of using streamers for every boy; it gives them something personal they can add to a flag and, if needs be, take with them, while the flag itself can remain with the den if needed. However, the committee has no right to say whether or not this flag would have to stay with them or move on; that is up to the Den Leaders. If they move on and the Wolf Leader wants to create a new flag with the same boys, that's entirely within his rights. Same with Bears. The Webelos leader all but has to do so as part of the Scouting Adventure adventure. I am glad you are finding a solution to your committee's bizarre mandate.

 

Now, if the Webelos have already come up with a Den Name, then any new boys who enter the Den can just assume the name of that group when they join. So in my Den, we are the Merry Archers, and any new boys become Archers automatically once they join our Den. But to make sure they can still contribute to our Den flag, they each create a new streamer, by themselves and with their name on it, once they join us. As the years go by the flag becomes a history of the Den by keeping on it the names of all those who have been a part of our group.

 

Post Script: seeing as your name here is Gwaihir, I am surprised you haven't gone with the "Eagles" or "the Wind-lords", lol.


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#33 Stosh

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:53 PM

If the requirement in Webelos is to "come up with a den name and flag", couldn't that be interpreted as "coming up from Tigers" with a den name and flag?  Just sayin'......


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Stosh

 

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#34 The Latin Scot

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 12:20 PM

That seems like a bit of a stretch to me, but who am I to argue it? lol  :D


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#35 qwazse

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 01:34 PM

If the boys say "we'd like to stay Merry Archers" ... sounds like they came up with their patrol name.

It could just as easily go the other way "We're fed up with archery, can we be siege engineers?" Still made up a name.

 

Regardless, the challenge is having the boys settle on what they want -- not just what they think will make us happy ... that they've listened to each other, and if one one boy really wants something a little different, that they figure out how to make him feel like he's contributed ... and convincing them that we scouters are proud of them for their hard work.


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#36 The Latin Scot

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 09:10 PM

I think that's part of why the program waits until the boys are Webelos Scouts before introducing the concept of choosing a Den name and emblem. Boys younger than 10 have a hard time coming to a consensus on something like representative nomenclature, and their fickle personalities mean that they get bored with what they choose quickly. Finding a good totem for their group is really hard, especially finding one that they will all like. But that's why they already have totems and names selected for them by the Cub Scout program itself - they are the Tigers, then the Wolves, then the Bears. They can personalize those if they wish (the white tigers, the grizzly bears, the timber wolves, etc.), but I think at those ages it's easier to use the totems given and keep things consistent with their ranks and books. 

 

Once they are Webelos however, they no longer have a "given" totem, so that's when they can come up with their own. The "Flying Eagle Webelos Den" works because Webelos is not a totem in and of itself. But the "Flying Eagle Wolf Den" seems strange because they are already the Wolves, so why add another emblem? For this reason, I think that compelling a group to use the same flag could become problematic, not to mention arbitrary and unnecessary. Their name and totem will change with each rank through each year, so I don't think it is a very thoughtful move by a committee to make such a request. Not that they have the authority to do so anyway.  :rolleyes:


Edited by The Latin Scot, 27 January 2017 - 09:13 PM.

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#37 Deaf Scouter

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 04:44 PM

My son's Pack did a different version of den spirit through Den blankets for Pack meetings.  We ended up taking a solid blanket and added things to each from each scout using the double sided iron on glue that one uses with fabric.


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