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Gay Scouts & B.s.a.


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#1 nitroboy

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 06:40 AM

I've been in scouting as an Assistant Scoutmaster for over 20 years and worked numerous positions in the council training other adults. Two years ago I left the troop to be at large for the council and continue to see my previous troop. I went to there summer week long resident camp to visit one day. I was told from another ASM that his son was approached and advances with touching was made to the ASM'S son by a scout that has said he was gay. He told his father because he was uneasy with this. They went to the camp director and reported the incident. I'm not at this time going to tell all of my fellow scouters the outcome at this time. I've been searching for the answer to what actions should of been taking. I ask has anyone read in "Black & White " from National how to and what should be done with the scouter that was gay? My take on this is it should fall under Youth Protection Guidelines. True? Please let me hear it from other Scouters and any incidents you may have had and what the outcome was. 


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#2 RememberSchiff

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 06:51 AM

Yes, handled as a Youth Protection matter.


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#3 packsaddle

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 07:06 AM

Did I read that wrong? It sounded like the touching was by a scout not a scouter. But yes, should be covered by Youth Protection.


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#4 Stosh

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 07:11 AM

YPT handled situation.  If a scouter gets kicked out for inappropriate touching of a scout, the same holds true for another scout.


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#5 Scouter99

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 11:14 AM

At camp several years ago, we had an analogous situation where a fruity kid in our troop was being harassed by an older boy from another troop while we were at summer camp.  Basically, the boy was ironically cat-calling the boy in our troop to embarrass him.  The boys came to us when the bully went so far as to pull our Scout into his lap, hug and pet him, to make a spectacle.

We informed the Camp Director, who immediately removed the boy from the camp program (confined him to his troop's site) while he discussed the issue with that troop's leadership and the boy; who was then kicked out of camp.  They were local, so dad was called to get him.

If the kid did survive his dad being called to pick him up from camp for molesting a 12-yr-old boy, I don't know what further action was taken.

 

We don't have a lot of detail here, so I can't say specifically what ought to happen in this case. 

If your gay scout put his hand on the boy's shoulder and said you're really cute; I would say he needs some counseling on appropriate ways to express his feelings and appropriate venues (not at camp).

If he grabbed his butt or sat on his lap or something similarly randy, then it is a serious youth protection issue that should be handled as outlined in the reporting procedures.


"The numbers in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty two. I suggest this number because in training boys myself I have found that sixteen was about as many I could deal with - in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each. I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two."

-Baden-Powell, Aids to Scoutmastership


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#6 NJCubScouter

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 11:50 AM

Sexual advances and sexual touching are to be reported as YP violations, and it sounds like this was done. It has nothing to do with "gay."

Packsaddle is correct, at one point you say the perpetrator was a "scout" and at another point it was a "scouter." If the behavior was sexual in nature it is a YP violation regardless of the age and status of the perpetrator, though the consequences may be different.

Edited by NJCubScouter, 11 July 2015 - 11:51 AM.

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#7 Scouter99

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 12:03 PM

asdf


Edited by Scouter99, 11 July 2015 - 12:07 PM.

"The numbers in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty two. I suggest this number because in training boys myself I have found that sixteen was about as many I could deal with - in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each. I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two."

-Baden-Powell, Aids to Scoutmastership


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#8 NJCubScouter

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 12:17 PM

You ok there, Scouter99?
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#9 Gone

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 12:45 PM

Sexual advances and touching between two people of the same sex has nothing to do with being gay? I thought that was the (current) definition of being gay. Who knew?


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#10 NJCubScouter

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 02:53 PM

By the way, nitroboy, welcome to the forums!
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#11 NJCubScouter

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 03:00 PM

Sexual advances and touching between two people of the same sex has nothing to do with being gay? I thought that was the (current) definition of being gay. Who knew?


Nitroboy asked for confirmation that the events he reported should be handled as a Youth Protection issue, which is how it should be handled and, evidently, how it was handled. How the incident was to be handled has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of those involved.

Edited by NJCubScouter, 11 July 2015 - 03:01 PM.

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#12 Scouter99

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 04:53 PM

You ok there, Scouter99?

We can't delete posts, anymore ;)

 

Sexual advances and touching between two people of the same sex has nothing to do with being gay? I thought that was the (current) definition of being gay. Who knew?

 

Without knowing the nature/severity of the situation, he's making a PC argument that the sexes and sexualities of the two youth don't matter because it would be just as much a Youth Protection issue for a girl to do the same things to a boy as it would be if it were two boys.

Again, all we know is that something was said accompanied by a touch.  We don't know what actually happened in terms of the "touch" that made the Scout "uncomfortable" but everyone knows that of course perception matters here.  If a girl tousled a boy's hair and said he was cute, he might blush or feel awkward, but if a boy tousled that boy's hair and called him cute he'd (generally) be creeped out or annoyed and feel gross. 

I mentioned the kind of contact in my first reply precisely because it does matter.  Of course if the touch was outright sexual, say, either a girl or boy grabbed a boy's butt it would be a different matter in terms of adult intervention, and a Youth Protection issue whether the boy felt "uncomfortable" or not.  But what a young man would consider innocuous from a girl would make him uncomfortable from another young man. 

 

If the situation was not overtly sexual, then perception rules.  If a woman feels harassed by unwanted advances she's absolutely a victim, but if a guy complains about unwanted attentions from a gay guy, then he's a bigoted homophobe who should be ashamed, and on top of that, he's probably actually gay himself and just trying to hide it!

 

We always get these questions without enough details to talk sensibly about them.  Hopefully nitroboy will come back around and give us a little more detail so we all can give the best advice/commentary possible.


Edited by Scouter99, 11 July 2015 - 05:13 PM.

"The numbers in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty two. I suggest this number because in training boys myself I have found that sixteen was about as many I could deal with - in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each. I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two."

-Baden-Powell, Aids to Scoutmastership


iEmBJEs.png


#13 NJCubScouter

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 06:03 PM

Nitroboy, just out of curiosity, if the situation you describe were NOT handled as a Youth Protection issue, then what do you suppose would be the other options for dealing with it?
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#14 Stosh

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 06:52 PM

Nitroboy asked for confirmation that the events he reported should be handled as a Youth Protection issue, which is how it should be handled and, evidently, how it was handled. How the incident was to be handled has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of those involved.

 

Dating in the crew is not a YPT issue?  Guys and gals can tent together all they want?  It has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of those involved.... Yeah right.  I always thought that YPT has EVERYTHING to do with the sexual orientation of those involved.  They must have gotten special dispensation exceptions for the gays. 


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#15 NJCubScouter

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 07:08 PM

Stosh, how you got any of that from what I said, I have no idea.

The YP rules are not about orientation, they are about conduct. The conduct Nitroboy seems to be describing (although Scouter99 does raise a legitimate issue about exactly what is being described) violates the rules - and may be a crime as well, since there is a question about whether the perpetrator is an adult or a youth, and if a youth we don't know what the relative ages are.

Unless there is something nitroboy isnt telling us, this situation seems to have been dealt with using the correct procedures. The camp director was notified of the situation. He/she presumably either notified the appropriate SE or made sure someone in the troop did so. The SE takes it from there.

Edited by NJCubScouter, 11 July 2015 - 07:15 PM.

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#16 Stosh

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 07:11 PM

Conduct is a result of one's orientation.


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#17 NJCubScouter

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 07:24 PM

Conduct is a result of one's orientation.


I don't even know what that means. The BSA leadership draws a clear distinction between orientation and conduct. If you disagree with them on that, well, welcome to the club. I disagree with them about other things.
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#18 Gone

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 08:22 PM

Nitroboy asked for confirmation that the events he reported should be handled as a Youth Protection issue, which is how it should be handled and, evidently, how it was handled. How the incident was to be handled has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of those involved.


Except that it does when you open scouts up like has been done. and this will continue to happen.
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#19 SSScout

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 08:22 PM

Homosexual, heterosexual, metasexual,  it matters not.  Any sexual contact is inappropriate in Scouting. The YP guidelines can and should be applied in any case of such behavior.

 

"There is no Sexuality merit badge."


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#20 AZMike

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 09:47 AM

Several people have posted that this is purely a Youth Safety Issue. There's nothing to see here, folks, move along smartly.

 

It seems to be be a policy issue as well. If I'm not mistaken, were we not told that a) this sort of thing would not happen, as gay kids would have the sense and maturity to keep their hands to themselves, and b) COs could bounce a kid who is gay if he overtly acts on his sexual interests - i.e., one could self-identify as gay, but to act on those impulses should result in termination from the BSA.

 

That seems to be the issue here: Can and should the gay scout be dropped from Scouting? He violated the rules, and in a way that will have a negative effect on the victim. For the victim in this case of unwanted sexual harassment, he will likely always associate this unpleasant experience with a) going to summer camp and b) perhaps, Scouting in general. He may brush it off, but it is just as likely that he will not want to participate in Scouting anymore, where that kind of thing happened to him.

 

Politically, is the BSA still in a position where it would be able to remove a gay scout for acting out on his desires with other boys, or has that time passed?


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