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delayed/deferred/denied rank advancement after BOR. Why?


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#41 JasonG172

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 06:25 PM


I'm gonna pick on you just a little, but understand that I'm doing it from an anti-EDGE bias. I suspect your conversation was more in depth, friendly, and encouraging. So don't think I'm taking issue with how you did things, but more how it comes off in the ether.


No problem I will explain


[LIST]
[*]Per GTA recommendations, did you provide a written statement regarding why his advancement was delayed and what he needs to do to rectify it? Not judging. Just wondering who really does this for lower ranks.


We did, we called him back into the room and said specifically what we needed to work on a little more. I circled the specific Items. I get the lower rank, but he doesn't "get it" at a lower rank will he "get it" in a higher rank? For Temderfoot you have to explain what EDGE is, I personally have no issues with EDGE. If I ask what EDGE is and you can not specifically tell what what EDGE means then HOW are you going to teach someone else EDGE its a very very simple concept.





[*]So, he forgot (or never learned) some key points of an MB he supposedly earned.
[LIST]
[*]Blame it on everyone thinking that teaching a kid via EDGE is the bees knees. Did you ask who his counselor was? Did he have a merit badge book? During the instruction was the material boring? Confusing?
[*]Did you ask him if there was something the troop could do (maybe an activity to practice) to help him stay sharp?
[*]Would he like his patrol to cook dinner for an upcoming meeting?


My Troop ( I am just the committee chairman) isnt what I want it to be which is why my son (web1) will be going to a different troop..They need more camping! When he couldn't answer some of these cooking questions I looked at the ASM and another member of the board and said "He would probably know the ins and outs of a kitchen if he was using it more"


I'm just trying to emphasize that the point is not just to be sure that a kid can rattle off the right answers. It's also to help the committee and the scout figure out how to build a better troop.


I get that and I want them to build a better troop, but I am not just going to sign something off and be that troop that has all these boys and cant do a simple task of setting up a wash station.

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#42 fred johnson

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 04:05 AM

... I get that and I want them to build a better troop, but I am not just going to sign something off and be that troop that has all these boys and cant do a simple task of setting up a wash station.


Jason ... I absolutely know you mean well and that you want the best for the scouts. The trouble is the WHEN. The skill test is when individual skills are signed off and definitely not during a BOR. Reinforcement occurs through the troop program such as during camp outs.

The issue is doing those tests at a BOR. That's not a BOR's job and it's a self-contradiction. A BOR testing scouts on scout skills so the scout knows his skills directly means that BOR does not know their own job per how BSA has instructed leaders to run BORs. It's an oxymoron. The two contradict each other.

Explicitly, scout skill testing is the job of the scoutmaster or his designates (ASMs or senior scouts). Skill testing is absolutely NOT the role of the BOR members.

Improve the troop program by pushing for valid and effective skills tests before the skill is signed off. Not by testing during the BOR.


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#43 qwazse

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 12:20 AM

I get it. The SM has not been focused on skills retention. So, JG172 wants that to change, and he uses the boy as an example. That'll only get him so far. Like I said if a boy can't rattle off the meaning of an acronym, but he can tell me in his own words how someone should teach/learn a skill, he's okay in my book ... especially if one of his steps is "look it up in the book!" :0 The adults need to get their heads out of the sand and get on the same page with skills challenges. Or, accept that some skills don't matter.
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#44 fred johnson

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 03:31 AM

I get it. The SM has not been focused on skills retention. So, ##### wants that to change, and he uses the boy as an example.


Qwazse ... Very well said. I've marked out any specific name because "I think" this is a pattern we see repeatedly in scouting. Scouts being used as leverage because people disagree on how the program works.
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#45 horanmm

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 06:05 AM




My Troop ( I am just the committee chairman) isnt what I want it to be which is why my son (web1) will be going to a different troop..


Just the committee chair! You realize that as Committee Chair you have the power to get the troop moving in the correct direction.

That ASM shouldn't have been a part of the Board of Review. Drop the skill testing from the BOR and only include committee members who have been fully trained. The goal of the Board of Review is to get an idea if the troop leaders are doing their job.

As committee chair I would have asked about EDGE, but only to discuss the experience and did they see how it can work. We would also talk about other scout skills they wanted to learn. If the scout can't remember EDGE, then I would have a talk with the scoutmaster, but I would not hold back the 11 year old.
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#46 JasonG172

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 08:18 AM

Explicitly, scout skill testing is the job of the scoutmaster or his designates (ASMs or senior scouts). Skill testing is absolutely NOT the role of the BOR members.



I'm right there with ya! what if the SM and ASM are incompetent?
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#47 pchadbo

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 08:43 AM

As "just the Commitee Chair", you work with the COR and find new ones.
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#48 JasonG172

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 08:47 AM

Just the committee chair! You realize that as Committee Chair you have the power to get the troop moving in the correct direction.



Yeap, I know my role very very well. First: I have only been in scouting for 5 years but I have come in on fire. Since then I have done ALL my training because I believe every scout Deserves a Trained Leader. We are preparing for Camporee, I am over Camp Site inspection, While discussing this with my SM I mentioned how important it is to setup a campsite properly, he said "We'll we don't do that" I just laughed and went about my business.
Scouting for me is 24 hours. I am always thinking of ways to grow the program, I am though the only one with the Vision!

I don't rock the boat YET! My SM knows I am upset about something, I am waiting for him to address the issue AS he should being the SM. In case I havent Mentioned it before, last year before I took WoodBadge our troop was Adult Lead!
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#49 andysmom

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 08:49 AM


Qwazse ... Very well said. I've marked out any specific name because "I think" this is a pattern we see repeatedly in scouting. Scouts being used as leverage because people disagree on how the program works.


I absolutely agree! Or, they don't know that there have been changes.
In our specific situation, the two committee members might not have realized that the wording has changed in the requirements for Star and Life that as "scout needs to serve in a position of leadership" to "a scout must serve in a position of responsibility"

A quick update on our situation, due to weather issues we have had to cancel our troop meetings on 2/2 and 2/9. There will be no meeting on 2/23 because it is during school vacation week. DAC will be out of town for "a few months", we reached out to council, they want district to handle it. We told them that it was unacceptable to wait months for this to be resolved. Our DE was supposed to be at our last meeting to sit in on the BOR, but that meeting was cancelled. We got an email from the DAC letting us know that we have an Eagle package back from national to pick up, so SM is eamiling his again right now to see what is being done. He is also going to insist that someone come to a committee meeting to explain what BOR are for and how they are to be conducted. My problem isn't so much the retesting, but these committee members holding the boy back because they "don't feel he is ready" for the next rank.

I have heard from a parent that his son and another scout were held back from Life for a year because the committee chair didnt think they were "ready" and another scout dropped out of scouting all together because the committee chair found reasons to not approve several of his Eagle service projects. These events happened before I was involved in the troop so I don't know specifics. I will admit that our Eagle Scouts are pretty amazing (tops of their graduating classes, current leaders in the community and local businesses, etc.) but that is not required to advance to the rank. Our committee chair is trying to hold scouts to that standard.
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#50 Sentinel947

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 08:58 AM



I'm right there with ya! what if the SM and ASM are incompetent?


Then they need to be trained better, or replaced with somebody who will do the job properly. As the Committee Chair, you are ideally placed to make this happen for your Scouts. Give your Scouts the program done right. A troop where your older boys train the younger Scouts and lead them. Where younger Scouts have positive peer role models to look up to. Where the Scoutmaster coaches the Scouts to lead the troop, and helps them develop a Troop program that helps them retain their skills. But doesn't do it for them. That way Scoutmaster's conferences help the Scoutmaster get to know his Scouts, and the Board of Review helps the Committee figure out the health of their troop. Everything in the Scouting program is there for a reason, we should use the parts of the program for their proper purpose.

I hope I'm not beating a dead horse. I recommend getting them trained first... removing people from their positions is the last option.

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#51 qwazse

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 09:45 AM

... Then they need to be trained better, or replaced with somebody who will do the job properly. ...


Most places that is a very long term solution. You might have to put up with 2nd best for years before the better persons for the job are free to take it. Figuring out how to educate the stubborn is a skill. (Only now, am I beginning to understand what gramps was telling me in all those lectures about how to care for donkeys. ;) )
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#52 Sentinel947

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 10:13 AM


Most places that is a very long term solution.


That's my bias creeping in. I don't have any kids in the program. So I can play the long term game.

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#53 SSScout

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 12:36 PM

""~~ about how to care for donkeys"" Q: Is that the bit about "getting the beasts attention first"?
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#54 mashmaster

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 07:03 PM

Frustrated about a scout that doesn't follow the scout law (lying and disrespectful to adults), want to be signed off for Star rank.  Tell him he needs to improve and tell him what he needs to do for the sign off.  Parents come rolling in bitching and moaning how I am picking on their son.  Parents are the hardest part of the role for sure.


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#55 MattR

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 08:41 PM

Mashmaster, I've been there and I don't miss it. I noticed that the pain a scout has to go through has nothing to do with the crime or the punishment. It has everything to do with whether or not the parent agrees with you. If a parent backs you up then the scout will accept whatever you have to say.

 

Usually more parents agree with the SM than don't.

 

Good luck and take care. You're doing the right thing.


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#56 qwazse

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 08:54 PM

Keep the BS out of the BSA, Mash!
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#57 mashmaster

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 09:55 PM

Interesting thing is that the scout accepted it just fine.   It is the parents that are having the problem.  I spoke with the scout afterwards with an ASM along for the conversation and he didn't seem to have an issue with waiting for him to show me what I think he can do.  Maybe, I am the only one that believes he can change his behavior?


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#58 qwazse

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 03:26 AM

Yep. Every now and then we're the first to know that a kid's going "off the rails." And we're the first to believe he (or she) can get back on track.

I'll know this, if you have a good committee, they'll stick by you and keep the irate parent at bay. In fact, it boils down to a choice between an irate parent or an irate committee. I'll take the parent (with a little help from the CC).
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#59 HelpfulTracks

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 05:49 AM

Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Law is requirement for advancement. Rank is not a participation trophy, it requires work and meeting standards.

 

I have had parents challenge me on that, but once I sit down and talk with them and their son, they back me. The Scout almost always improves. Only one parent has failed to get on board, unfortunately I rarely see that Scout anymore.

 

Another option, since the parents are "rolling in," I assume they are not volunteers. Hand them an application, tell them what leaders are required to do (particularly the parts about living by the Scout Oath and Law and to help ALL of the Scouts, not just their son), get them trained and hand them a job or two. People tend to complain less about things they don't understand when they have learn what they don't understand AND have skin in the game. Not to mention, it is amazing how little time they will have to complain when they are giving an "hour a week."


Edited by HelpfulTracks, 27 August 2017 - 05:50 AM.

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#60 mashmaster

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 09:08 AM

Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Law is requirement for advancement. Rank is not a participation trophy, it requires work and meeting standards.

 

I have had parents challenge me on that, but once I sit down and talk with them and their son, they back me. The Scout almost always improves. Only one parent has failed to get on board, unfortunately I rarely see that Scout anymore.

 

Another option, since the parents are "rolling in," I assume they are not volunteers. Hand them an application, tell them what leaders are required to do (particularly the parts about living by the Scout Oath and Law and to help ALL of the Scouts, not just their son), get them trained and hand them a job or two. People tend to complain less about things they don't understand when they have learn what they don't understand AND have skin in the game. Not to mention, it is amazing how little time they will have to complain when they are giving an "hour a week."

They are actually volunteers (Dad is an Eagle...) ASM IOLS trained, they have different standards for their sons than others......   I and the CC are meeting today and going to formulate a plan. Things like this kill my scout spirit to help people but I will continue forward.


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