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Eagle and weed


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#21 King Ding Dong

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 07:38 AM

Most teenage boys a going to screw up big time more than once, sometimes they get caught sometimes not. To those who would just throw away to key on this boy you are making the strongest argument I have ever heard for 13 year old Eagles. If you want it better get it as fast as you can because once you get it they can't take it away and there are a whole lot of people out there who will do all sorts of things to prevent you from from getting it if you do not meet their expectations. You are likely to screw up a few times along the way and are going to need plenty of buffer time in case they descend upon you.
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#22 King Ding Dong

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 07:44 AM

Tahawk, a joke yes. :) Schools get really cranky about knives, probably more so than drugs. Had to pull in a ll the "sheath" knife zero tolerance threads threads as well. We spend an awful lot of time teaching the responsible use of knives, many other cultures spend a lot of effort teaching the responsible use of drugs and alcohol. All we do is "just say no"
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#23 Old_OX_Eagle83

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 08:45 AM

This thread is a perfect example of the problem attitude that has developed with Eagle Scout. Eagle Scout is a possible attainment for our best and brightest, those who should be on a pedestal, a shining example, and a spokesperson for BSA. Not every scout should get Eagle, not every scout has what it takes. Eagle is not a completion of Scouting, it isn't a graduation, it isn't resume filler. This award is cheapened when we begin to think "everyone should win" and "they all deserve it"; sorry it just isn't so. This kid screwed up major, and we should be concerned about how to get him help ... not finding a way to give him a rare honor, he in no way deserves. We're talking about a minor who not only is comfortable breaking the law, and encouraging other youth to follow his steps, but also clearly has criminal contacts ... drug dealers he has relations with, and a fund source likely unknown to this family, that is possibly criminal as well. Are we really talking about finessing the rules, so this deserving young man can get Eagle ... really? Are you kidding me? Lets talk about getting law enforcement to investigate, determine where the illegal drugs came from, and shut down the pipeline. If that source is his family, lets get child protective services on this. Lets get this young man in a rehab and rehabilitation program, and hopefully get this youth clean and sober, and put him back on the straight and narrow. I support doing all of these things; but no scouter worthy of putting on the uniform would be thinking about this young man's advancement at this time, much less trying to find a way to "beat the system" and get him Eagle Scout. Put on the uniform, follow the rules and guidelines of BSA, show scout spirit by living by the Oath and Law, set the correct example - rewarding those who follow your example, and not those who don't ... or take off the uniform, and find something else to do with your time. I'm a member of BSA, a registered leader, a coach, mentor, and guide of youth in this program; BSA is very clear on what needs to happen here. BTW, has the SE been notified of this event, as required?
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#24 packsaddle

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 08:57 AM

"This kid screwed up major, and we should be concerned about how to get him help ... not finding a way to give him a rare honor, he in no way deserves." I agree. Eagle is irrelevant at this point. If he turns things around it might become relevant in the future but right now his LIFE is on the line. Some badge or rank is unimportant in comparison.
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#25 Old_OX_Eagle83

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 09:26 AM

Thank you Pack, finally someone who is looking at what's important here. I bleed Red and Green, like the rest of you, but a reality check is needed here. This young man needs help, and not with a merit badge.
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#26 David CO

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 09:28 AM

King Ding Dong, I got the joke. My school allows for the responsible use of knives in Science, Art, and Shop classes, the cafeteria, and Scout activities. Not so cranky, IMHO, certainly not more so than with drugs. We have zero tolerance for recreation drug use in any of our school sponsored activities, on or off campus. I must agree with Eagle 83 on this one. In addition to the other consequences mentioned, legal and advancement, expulsion from school would be a very real possibility if the CO were a school.
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#27 SM bob

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 10:19 AM

I would pull his POR, have a talk with him and his parents, and maybe require him to help out at the local NA meetings. I would even make him teach about the dangers of drugs to the troop. You have probably know this kid for a few years. He might have hit a low point. His parents, you, and the troop can help him comeback from this. I would wait to decide on his Eagle rank. As others have said, he has to prove that can live by the scout law.
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#28 fred johnson

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 11:49 AM

Old_OX_Eagle83 ... I agree this thread is a perfect example of the problem with the attitude toward Eagle Scout. Too many people infer too much on Eagle. It's rightly respected and very well hyped, but it is only a rank. You do the requirements and earn the rank. Too many people think it's more than that. It is scouting that teaches character and it's being a scout that we should honor. Eagle just means requirements were completed. If the kid completes the requirements, he's earned Eagle. People who talk about "the award is cheapened" are way off base and are protecting the award instead of protecting the scout.

As for the rest.... This scenario is way way too common to call it a major screw up or to question the scout's moral character. Pot is so common and so many kids have it that there will not be a police investigation or anything like that. The police would find nothing more than what you found when you investigated. Your scout had it and provided it to his fellow scouts. That is bad, very bad, but that does not make him a drug dealer.

So what will happen is that the scout is going to face some immediate challenges. The court will scare him and give him an intervention program that usually works. Odds are this is the first time he's had pot and it is a crime of ease, convenience and peer and societal pressure.

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As for finessing the rules.... From what I understand, he has a few merit badges left. If he completes those merit badges, there is little to stop him from submitting an application to be recognized as an Eagle Scout directly to the district and request a disputed Eagle BOR. His troop doesn't even need to be involved. As long as the court issues are resolved and he can demonstrate the requirements are complete, BSA will award Eagle. The only thing that can stop that is the scout not knowing his rights and his troop's adult leaders not telling him about his rights.

This exact scenario has occurred many times. We can be all self-righteous and try to deny him his accomplishments, but then we are not following the Scout Law ourselves because we have to hide information from the scout to get our way. IMHO, that's way more shameful than the mistake the scout made.

Our duty is to protect all our scouts (thus membership issue) and to support our scouts (that's why you tell him about his rights as a scout and the procedures he can use). Anything else and we're not doing our job as good leaders.
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#29 King Ding Dong

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 12:07 PM

King Ding Dong, I got the joke. My school allows for the responsible use of knives in Science, Art, and Shop classes, the cafeteria, and Scout activities. Not so cranky, IMHO, certainly not more so than with drugs. We have zero tolerance for recreation drug use in any of our school sponsored activities, on or off campus. I must agree with Eagle 83 on this one. In addition to the other consequences mentioned, legal and advancement, expulsion from school would be a very real possibility if the CO were a school.

If one was to go to every US high school and give every student a Whiz Quiz and expel everyone with a positive result the Zombie Apocalypse would result. I really find the US approach to drug issues deplorable. If you are wealthy, a politician or otherwise famous and are caught with drugs, especially if they are in tablet form (Rush anyone?) it is considered a mental health issue with a rehab stint at a beach or mountain resort the norm. If you are poor or middle class it is a criminal issue and lockem up and throw away the key.
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#30 Basementdweller

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 02:13 PM

So what if this happened in Colorado or Washington where it is not illegal? While MJ is a gateway drug there are many function weed abusers, just like functional alcoholics, in our society. Not sure why there is any debate Scouting is the least of this young mans issues. or is it an issue at all? What does mom and dad say? Are they casual users as well? As pointed out the police are not going to do anything to a kid with a couple of joints, even if he was sharing it. So Matt, you need to figure out where YOU stand on the issue. I would do everything in my power to make it as difficult as possible for the young man to receive his Eagle. Depending on the discussion with the parents I would ask the committee to support me in either suspending your revoking his membership in the troop. If you don't stand for something, then sooner or later you realize you stand for nothing.
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#31 Papadaddy

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 02:55 PM

There needs to be a meeting with the SM, COR, Camp Director and Scout Executive. They may take it out of your hands. All the Camp Director can do is document it and send him home. Membership decisions are up to the COR and/or the SE. And as a routine EBOR District representative, I would vote no on handing him his Eagle. To do so would send the worst possible message to the other scouts and parents, who no doubt know all about what is going on.
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#32 David CO

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:13 PM

I am more than a little concerned when I consider the possibility that youth members may read posts on this site and believe some of the half-truths and misinformation about the illegality and potential consequences of recreational drug use by minors. Recreational drug use by MINORS is not legal in any state in the USA. It is not legal in any grade school or high school in the USA. In fact, most states have enhanced penalties for bringing recreational drugs to school or to school sponsored activities. Many Scout units have schools as their CO. Many others have PTA/PTO. In both cases, they are considered school sponsored activities as far as the disciplinary rules go.
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#33 TAHAWK

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:58 PM

Old_OX_Eagle83 ... I agree this thread is a perfect example of the problem with the attitude toward Eagle Scout. Too many people infer too much on Eagle. It's rightly respected and very well hyped, but it is only a rank. You do the requirements and earn the rank. Too many people think it's more than that. It is scouting that teaches character and it's being a scout that we should honor. Eagle just means requirements were completed. If the kid completes the requirements, he's earned Eagle. People who talk about "the award is cheapened" are way off base and are protecting the award instead of protecting the scout.

As for the rest.... This scenario is way way too common to call it a major screw up or to question the scout's moral character. Pot is so common and so many kids have it that there will not be a police investigation or anything like that. The police would find nothing more than what you found when you investigated. Your scout had it and provided it to his fellow scouts. That is bad, very bad, but that does not make him a drug dealer.

So what will happen is that the scout is going to face some immediate challenges. The court will scare him and give him an intervention program that usually works. Odds are this is the first time he's had pot and it is a crime of ease, convenience and peer and societal pressure.

-----------------------------------

As for finessing the rules.... From what I understand, he has a few merit badges left. If he completes those merit badges, there is little to stop him from submitting an application to be recognized as an Eagle Scout directly to the district and request a disputed Eagle BOR. His troop doesn't even need to be involved. As long as the court issues are resolved and he can demonstrate the requirements are complete, BSA will award Eagle. The only thing that can stop that is the scout not knowing his rights and his troop's adult leaders not telling him about his rights.

This exact scenario has occurred many times. We can be all self-righteous and try to deny him his accomplishments, but then we are not following the Scout Law ourselves because we have to hide information from the scout to get our way. IMHO, that's way more shameful than the mistake the scout made.

Our duty is to protect all our scouts (thus membership issue) and to support our scouts (that's why you tell him about his rights as a scout and the procedures he can use). Anything else and we're not doing our job as good leaders.


Again, a reqiurement is that he live according to the Scout Oath and Law. He swears to do his best to do so as a Scout, regardless of advancement considerations. He clearly fails that requirement.

I sit on a Council Appeal Board. He can appeal. The overwhelming odds are that he loses the appeal. We have had such cases.

If we are actually interested in character development, he needs to recognize that he did wrong and show that he is capable of living according to the Oath and Law. Saying that violating the law and trying to hook others is is not a major issue is a disservice to the Scout and to Scouting, IMO.

As for whether he is a dealer, we do not know. Dealers often give "free samples" to hook customers. We have had Scouts dealing in this area. They say it was "only" to finance their habits.

The widespread nature of the problem does not diminish its seriousness, even if the "war on drugs" looks to be a flop.
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#34 King Ding Dong

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 04:06 PM

If an existing Eagle were in the same situation what do you think should be done? Take it away, suspend it?
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#35 Stosh

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 04:22 PM

If it's a legal issue, let the courts decide what needs to be done. If they slap him on his wrist and send him home, so be it. I'm thinking the parents are going to heap a load of coals on him and now it's up to the BSA to add to that. Maybe we ought to get the school and church in on this little game of dump on the dummy. I'm all for dragging him out in the parking lot and shooting him as an example to the rest of the boys. But if you do, make sure that along with the blindfold, you give him the right kind of cigarette. Stosh
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#36 David CO

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 04:39 PM

Oh, I forgot, In my state he could also lose his driver license.
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#37 TAHAWK

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 06:12 PM

If an existing Eagle were in the same situation what do you think should be done? Take it away, suspend it?



B.S.A. has the power to take the medal and insignia back. Seems extreme after the fact for this "situation."

Stosh, what, if anything - sarcasm aside - would you do in the circumstances described by the OP? Am I correct that you agree he should be given a chance to show better?

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#38 packsaddle

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 07:19 PM


B.S.A. has the power to take the medal and insignia back. Seems extreme after the fact for this "situation."


Curious, how many times has this ever happened? Do you know of any examples?
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#39 TAHAWK

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 07:52 PM

This came up here years ago.

Charter and Bylaws and Ruiles and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, Article x, Section 4, Clause 9:

Clause 9. All badges and insignia shall remain the property of the Boy Scouts of America subject to recall for cause by the Corporation or its duly authorized representative.


Mike Walton, whom a number of you know, related witnessing the recall of B.S.A. badges and insignia from a pedophile: http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977728933
He also reports:

I have been tracking this over the years since 1970, and as far as I'm aware, the National Executive Board has only revoked eleven or twelve Eagle Scout badges awarded to criminals or to individuals who have caused extreme harm to the program. I am curious to see what the National Executive Board will do in a current case of an Eagle Scout who made another Scout drink urine as a "punishment" during a campout.


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#40 fred johnson

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 09:18 PM

TAHAWK ... It's interesting in the inconsistencies. I've seen differently. If a scout that has an incident such as this one resolved and behind him, I've seen those as successful even if the scoutmaster won't sign off on the SMC or the Eagle application.

BASEMENTDWELLER ... "I would do everything in my power to make it as difficult as possible for the young man to receive his Eagle." ... If you don't want to support the scout, fine. Then, get out of the way. If you don't trust him in your troop, remove him. But it is NEVER EVER our job to block a scout. Not help, fine. Not sign, fine. If you want to let him lay in the bed that he made, fine. But to be an obstacle or even blowing threatening hot air is just being a mean sob and a poor example of a scout leader.

Maybe it's just me. I've seen scouts that have faced too many challenges to believe that my job as a leader is to add to their headaches.
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