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#181 David CO

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 02:50 PM

Well, make them take the training.Or give the kids equal work doing something else, like making sure the floors stay clean.

 

I was in Japan a long time ago and the kids clean the schools. They have no janitors.

 

My guess is something could be worked out, if the schools were interested.

 

Our janitor has a really neat machine for washing the floors.  It looks like a small Zamboni.  It scrubs, rinses, and waxes the floors in one pass.  

 

It is not like the old days when the school hallways were cleaned with a mop and pail.  I would guess that this has changed in Japan as well.

 

The training can be expensive.  It is well worth it to have a properly trained janitor, but I wouldn't use it as a punishment for students.


Edited by David CO, 29 November 2016 - 02:59 PM.

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#182 DuctTape

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 04:43 PM

While students may not be allowed to do the actual cleanup of an area they made hazardous, they could spend equivalent time doing beautification projects and speaking with younger students about acceptable behaviors, etc...
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#183 David CO

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 06:12 PM

I suspect that some people on the forum might not understand how school disciplinary procedures work now days.  Our system is very computerized.

 

When a student breaks a rule, the teacher goes on the computer to file a disciplinary report.  The disciplinary report lists just about every type of infraction.  The teacher checks the box next to the infraction.

 

Sometimes the computer will automatically assign the corresponding consequence, as predetermined by the administration and school board.  Sometimes it will give the teacher a menu of consequences to choose from.

 

The disciplinary report will ask for a brief description of the offense, and when/where it took place.

 

When the disciplinary report is complete, it is automatically emailed to the parent, who can respond to it in real time.  Many parents have the disciplinary reports sent directly to their phones.

 

There is very little room for creativity.  Teachers cannot create their own individualized consequences.  The computer won't accept it.

 

I am pretty old fashioned.  I like the old way of doing things.  But most of our parents, particularly the younger ones, really like the new system.  


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#184 DuctTape

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 07:00 PM

Some of us do work in education and while computerization is in use, when it takes the place of human decision making instead of providing data to help with decision making things have gone awry. No computer system used in a school is competent enough for us to abdicate to it the decision making authority. It isn't old school vs new, it is making sound professional decisions using technology, not having technology make the decisions.
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#185 David CO

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 07:31 PM

Some of us do work in education and while computerization is in use, when it takes the place of human decision making instead of providing data to help with decision making things have gone awry. No computer system used in a school is competent enough for us to abdicate to it the decision making authority. It isn't old school vs new, it is making sound professional decisions using technology, not having technology make the decisions.

 

Of course, the computer isn't making the decisions.  It is the administration and school board who make the decisions.  To some extent, the parents are indirectly making the decisions.

 

Just like going from short answer and essay questions to T/F and multiple choice questions (which can be graded by a computer) can change the way we teach, going from face-to-face disciplining to computerized  disciplinary reports somewhat changes the way we discipline.

 

Our parents like the new system.  They feel it allows them to respond more quickly when there is a problem.


Edited by David CO, 29 November 2016 - 08:29 PM.

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#186 Stosh

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 09:43 PM

.... and this is why my grandchildren are being home schooled.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#187 Tampa Turtle

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 11:41 AM

As I said, for me zero tolerance is action based without empathy. That being said, for growth to take place, the perpetrator at some point has to initiate actions of acceptance for the misdeed and repentance for the harm caused.

 

MattR never shut the door, the scout in his pride chose not to respect the harm he caused. I supposed we could beg and plead for some hint of regret or guilt in front of the victims, but what's the point if he doesn't mean it?  We can only hope that time wears him down to see the light somewhere in his future.

 

Barry

 

My wife calls school 'zero tolerance' rules 'no tolerance' because the ones who often get swept up in them are ESE kids or kids with issues that adults are not flexible to deal with. 


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#188 Tampa Turtle

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 11:45 AM

Absolutely.  OSHA regulations have a lot of age based restrictions.

 

Some of the regulations have to do with training as well as age.  Janitors have to take classes and be signed off in order to be qualified to do any sort of hazardous clean up.

 

You might be surprised at how much training and skill some of our janitors have.

 

I don't think BSA offers a janitorial merit badge.  Too bad.  It might give our students a little more appreciation and respect for what our janitors do for us every day.

 

I might be a little bit biased, though, since I am very good friends with our school janitor.

 

I was at a recent HS Football game and saw the stands completely trashed with bottles, etc. I was starting to clean up my section and was stopped by a teacher that said the stands are cleaned after everygame by kids who are doing it as part of their detention...90 minutes after every Friday night. During the game they are sweeping the corridors and emptying the trash. The Janitor reports to the principal if he has to redo anything, if so they get to do it again.


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#189 DuctTape

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 11:56 AM

My wife calls school 'zero tolerance' rules 'no tolerance' because the ones who often get swept up in them are ESE kids or kids with issues that adults are not flexible to deal with.


This is exactly why zero tolerance has fallen out of favor (it was enacted as a knee-jerk reaction without real forethought). Restorative discipline (or restorative justice) is more meaningful and significantly more effective as it deals with causes.
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#190 Stosh

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 12:40 PM

At least when one got sent to the principle's office, there was a human being to deal with...maybe your parents, too, if they were called in.  I know of no one who was ever expelled during my 4 years of high school, but the principle's office door was pretty much a revolving door.

 

P. S. unknown to us all, our principle was 101st Airborne who parachuted into France on D-Day.  Had we known, we might have behaved better in school.


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Stosh

 

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#191 JasonG172

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 03:50 PM

I think we see a lot more push-back when it is the Chartered Organization who imposes the limitations on the unit leaders' use of personal judgement and discretionary authority.  Much more so than when BSA does it.

 

I don't think so at all and never see ANY Charter Org wanting MORE restrictions than we already place on ourselves


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