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ban of fixed blade knives?


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#41 Stosh

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 06:48 AM

What do councils with fixed blade knife bans do about the kitchen tool which looks remarkably similar to a fixed blade knife? Oh, no sheath for it? Well it should have one if one wishes to be safe. But as long as all kitchen tools that look remarkably similar to fixed blade knives are okay, it's just a ruling of semantics, and has nothing to do with reality. I'm sure it helps a lot of people sleep better at night and as long as they don't watch the boys in the kitchen, they should be okay. Stosh
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#42 boomerscout

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 10:52 AM

For some reason I can't add another comment to one of my replies above, so...
It's preferable to hatchet splitting because at no point do you need to put your fingers in harms way. Done right, you're never swinging anything towards yourself, never putting your fingers in front of the cutting edge of a blade, and you move the blade by hitting it with another object, so all of the motion is done in a far safer manner.


Ouch! We must kindly ask you to turn in your Totin' Chip. At no time do your ever swing a hatchet down while holding a billet of wood upright. No, you use a hatchet as a wedge in this case: insert the bit into whatever crack you find in the end of the wood, press in in hard. Then, with both hands on the handle, lift up the joined wood-hatchet about 4 - 6 inches and hammer back with the billet vertical. Do repeatedly and the wood will split.

Your baton method is more easily done with a froe rather than a knife blade -- keeps the hand away from the baton/mallet

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#43 boomerscout

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 12:05 PM

A slightly different take on using a hatchet is "Swing Your Axe but Safely" by Green Bar Bill in the August 1953 issue of Boys Life
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#44 TAHAWK

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 04:14 PM

[QUOTE=jblake47;n410001]What do councils with fixed blade knife bans do about the kitchen tool which looks remarkably similar to a fixed blade knife? Oh, no sheath for it? Well it should have one if one wishes to be safe. But as long as all kitchen tools that look remarkably similar to fixed blade knives are okay, it's just a ruling of semantics, and has nothing to do with reality. I'm sure it helps a lot of people sleep better at night and as long as they don't watch the boys in the kitchen, they should be okay.

Stosh[/QUO
Some zero tolerance councils specifically except knives used in cooking OR knives not "carried."
Some zero tolerance councils ban all "fixed-blade" knives, use them in Fishing MB and handicrafts areas and sell them in their camp Trading Post. and see no inconsistency.
One zero tolerance council confessed that there was no known rationale for the rule (Think how long it's been since "Rambo- First Blood." ) and that sheath knives were "OK if not huge."
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#45 Stosh

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:50 PM

Okay, isn't it an oxymoronism to have an exception to a zero tolerance policy? Or maybe it's just a moronism. As far as the hatchet is concerned. I find that tool to be a bit useless. Either go with a full axe or 3/4 axe for the major splitting. File sharpened should be sufficient, relying on head weight to do the job. Then on the other end of the spectrum is the BELT axe. Very short handle, stone honed sharp. With 100% certainty one can split kindling the size of a #2 pencil safely and faster than anyone can fuzz a stick with a folding knife, lock blade, and/or Crocodile Dundee Bowie knife. As with any tool, if not properly taught, it can be a danger to the wielder. When belt axes are mentioned, 99% of the people I meet usually suck a large amount of air just before grasping at their chest. The other 1% just nod and smile knowingly. I carry a BSA sheath knife whenever I camp. On extended camping and or wilderness camping the belt axe/sheath knife combo is the tool of choice. I have been questioned at certain activities on the "legality" of such weaponry in certain councils. My only answer is, with the BSA written on various snaps and blades, it is pretty difficult to outlaw BSA equipment at BSA functions. When the canoe rolls in the rapids and the lashed on gear tangles the boys, the belt axe is the go to tool every time. I've never had to cut into a canoe bottom for rescuing anyone, but given a belt ax or folding knife, I'll take the belt axe. Stosh
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#46 JasonG172

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 08:40 AM

This is my knife and I really like it but rules are rule and I do understand.
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#47 Stosh

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 09:31 AM

:) Same here, that's why I don't use the council summer camp. We go elsewhere, but the sheath knife is but one of many rules the boys prefer not to deal with for their week. Stosh
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#48 Sidney Porter

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 11:53 AM



ok i think what i am going to try to push through is as follows
to allow fixed blades with a blade length of up to 6in
require that a scout must prove that he is responsible with a fixed blade and know how to properly use and carry it
and a scout must bring in the knife to be approved for use in the troop- approval will be carried out by myself and a adult leader

I think that you should be prepared with explaining in your proposal in more detail. It doesn't call for additional training but you are calling for additional testing for the scout to prove that they are responsible. Are you going to have an additional test to prove that they are responsible, they test should be clearily outlined.

The 2nd piece is with the knife itself. The only thing that is outlined is 6 inches or less. What other criteria are you going to follow to determine if it is acceptable? Since ytou are requiring the knife to be inspected by you that implies that they already purchased the knife. I would think that a parent and a scout would rather know the criteria prior to purchase rather than

As far as the determination being completed by you and a scout leader. People come and go so if the rules are written in such a way that it needs to be approved by "thesnakeman" what happens when you leave? By better defining the the criteria of knofe saftey and an acceptable knife, this would eliminate the knowledge base being held with one person.

I think you should also address how scouters would be handled do they also need to go through the evaluation process? Are they going to have the same standards of the knife selection.

You will also want to make sure that you know which council facility has outlawed them. What you don't want to happen if get this to pass at the unit level only to find out that they can only take them a few places.

I think that without a lot of detail you will be ignored. You are going to need consensus to change the rule. The only way to get this is with education and a well thought out plan. To use your term "push through" is not the best way to get consensus when the people you are presenting to are the ones that made or believe in the existing policy.

Good luck how every you choose to pursue this.

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#49 boomerscout

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 01:01 PM

Some namby-pamby councils may thus rule based on their mis-interpretation of state, county or town knife ordinances. As long as knife is not double edged, nor looks like a ninja fighting knife it should be OK if carried openly. However, some laws disallow anyone under 18 from carrying any kind of knife. One of my sheath knives was purchased at a Scout Shop a few years back. Since it has the Good Turn knot embossed onto the sheath, and the Scout insignia on the blade itself, couldn't I just say it was part of the uniform?
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#50 Stosh

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 01:37 PM

Yeah, it's kinda hard to outlaw stuff sold in the BSA Shop. :) Yet somehow they think it's okay. Special training and setup for fixed blade knives? Okay, there's the paring knife, rather short, but will still cut fingers. Then the boning knife, bit longer, may stretch the 6" limit, then there's the butcher, got to believe that's +6", ham knife, some of those go into the 8-9" lengths, the Ninja length knives. :) Then there's the fillet knife. If it isn't razor sharp it isn't going to help clean fish. They have a sheath that people like say, maybe fishermen can use for a shore lunch maybe? Then there's the fixed blade, serrated butter and/or steak knife. While overlooked regularly by the BSA as dangerous, it is the shim of choice in some of our more formidable housing establishments. What about those camp spoon, fork, knife combo things. They come in a belt attachable sheath. Those can be sharpened to quite a good edge too. I'm thinking kids today ought to be taught to eat with their fingers. It's far safer than giving them utensils that look remarkably similar to fixed blade knives. There's gonna be a lot of angry women out there that are going to blame BSA for not teaching their husbands how to use fixed blade knives correctly in the kitchen. There's nothing worse that a woman with fire in her eyes and a butcher knife in her hand coming towards you with the intent of teaching you say maybe a culinary lesson? :) Stosh
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#51 Eagledad

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 01:39 PM

so how would you recommend me going about getting this ban revoked or amended.
thanks
Thomas


I would do a fixed knife safety training class for interested scouts and adults who might use these knives outside troop activities. It would be the exact same training that I use for the pocket knife making the point that there is no difference of safety between the two types. Barry
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#52 Stosh

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 01:55 PM

With all the boys handling fixed blade knives in the kitchen, why in the world would BSA not be doing fix blade training as part of the Totin' Chit? Serious, this is a major gap in training. If one has to go outside the troop to get such training as Barry suggests, then it's time to get the subject back on the discussion table. If one is to be proficient in the use of knives in the kitchen, it only goes to prove they should be just as proficient outside the kitchen with them as well. Stosh
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#53 blw2

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 02:20 PM

gasp! "Is that a kitchen knife or a sword?" said, as he bites his finger nails.....
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#54 Eagledad

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 02:26 PM

Serious, this is a major gap in training. If one has to go outside the troop to get such training as Barry suggests, then it's time to get the subject back on the discussion table.
Stosh


And that is the point of the training, get it back on the discussion table and prove through the training that if anything, pocket or folding blade knives require more training because of their inherent of danger of non-fixed blade. I'm a pragmatic sort of person who tries to get folks thinking away from their emotions. It's just like the bow saw, most adults don't realize that it is the most dangerous woods tool the average scout or scouter uses. So they don't give it the respect it deserves and I think it is fair to say most users nick their hand with it. Barry
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#55 TAHAWK

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 03:04 PM

Obviously, BSA does not speak with one voice, on this or many other topics. There seems to be no person or committee whose job it is to insure a consistent message. Also, most of the bans are written by folks who are obviously not very knowledgeable about knives or the outdoor program - or possibly the language. (Those who know what a 'compensator" is vs. a "flash-suppressor" know the humor of the "assault weapons" total ban on the second that simultaneously allowed the first.) What do they know of the health issues of using folding knives to butcher meat or the safety issues of what sort of knife is very, very strongly suggested for white-water use? Stosh, you are right on target about the gap in training. When BSA stopped selling sheath knives, it shortly thereafter removed fixed-blade training from Totin' Chip and the Handbook. So, although BSA has expressly recognized since 2011 our obligation to teach about all legally-owned knives (G2SS) - an obligation I believe that never went away given the presence of "kitchen" knives in the boy's environment, Totin' Chip still remains deficient. As regards that training, the props are available even in "zero tolerance" camps - the lock-blade knife sold by BSA. Once locked, it is indistinguishable, safety-wise, from a fixed-blade knife except slightly more likely to break in the hand and except when being closed, when it presents a closing hazard. (Once closed, it is safer, as it is when left at home: safer and useless.) All folding knives present the closing hazard (unless we ban closing as too dangerous). They can, and often do, close on the Scout's fingers. Anyone in the program very long has seen the results. Approaching the issue as a matter of safety and training, citing the G2SS and BSA statement in Boy's Life noted above, is probably more likely to produce change than "push" or other confrontation. Got to get those Scouts ready for cooking and cleaning fish. The "zero-tolerance" way is the avoidance of teaching judgment - arbitrary by definition. We should be teaching and fostering the opposite. When my former troop faced the issues raised by a tiny Scout coming to camp with a knife with a 9" blade, the leaders (that is to say, the PLC) decided "about" 4" was the maximum blade length except for "fishing knives" and "cooking knives." They also decided to disallow knives "specially designed to be a weapon" - fixed or folding. Their thinking about length was that anything needing more blade for woodcraft would be dealt with by an axe or saw. Prompted by a question from one of the adults, they also warned that a dangerous sheath would be grounds to bar carrying. (We had a session on leather-working in a couple of months, and sheaths were a favorite project.) I thought it was a fine exercise in making the sort of decisions that citizens and leaders of citizens will have to face as adults - not all black and white. A couple of "tantos" and one stiletto (designed to stab and impractical as woods tools) were disallowed. It was a non-issue thereafter. We did pass on a couple of camps for our semi-annual council summer camping experience. And yes, rules change. That's part of life as well. Boomer, the "part of the uniform" argument failed in the UK where is was, literally, part of the uniform before their ban. It has never been "part of the uniform" here, so . . . . Hey, Snake, some Bussekin are less intimidating, especially to Aichmophobs. Learn to be clever. It is sometimes more important than being "right" in some sense.
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#56 TAHAWK

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 01:35 PM

>Since we have recognized our obligation to teach the youth the proper use of all legally owned knives as of 2011, how do meet our obligation if fixed-blade knives - found in almost all homes - are the subject of "zero tolerance" policies?

>The B.S.A. announced in Boy's Life in June, 2008, that:

"The best type of knife for camping trips — and most any other outdoor activity, for that matter — is a short, fixed-blade knife with a beefy handle.

Folding pocketknives can fold up on your hand while cutting. Not fixed blades. And remember: When it comes to blades, bigger isn’t always better. Avoid blades longer than four inches. A small, sharp blade can cut just as well as a long one, but it’s safer to handle and easier to maneuver in tight spots. With a good fixed blade you’ll be set for most anything the outdoors can throw at you — whittling, cutting, notching, butchering, filleting, even spreading peanut butter."

>The basis of all our moral training is trust.

>I understand irrational fear. I am irrationally afraid of heights. I do not expect others to conform to my phobias.

> My Council briefly banned fixed-blade knives at our camps. The responsible "professional" has been fired and the rule (and many, many others he decreed) is gone, replaced by the Oath and Law.

AND BSA is selling sheath knives again.  http://www.scoutstuf...ccessories.html


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#57 AltadenaCraig

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 12:37 PM

I replied in the GTSS thread, but to cover all bases: I tried the link, but it took me to a blank page. Bad link, or did BSA pull the item?
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The woods are lovely, dark, and deep

but I have promises to keep,

And miles to go before I sleep,

And miles to go before I sleep.

 

—Robert Frost


#58 Chadamus

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 12:55 PM

They changed the page. Shortly after TAHAWK posted the link I clicked on it and saw multiple pages of knives.
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#59 TAHAWK

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 03:04 PM

Try this for the

 

"Gaupe" (Lynx)  http://www.scoutstuf...ml#.WVwA1ITyvX4

 

There were two other models of Helle sheath knives, but they are gone now.  The third is mostly cut off at the bottom left of the inserted picture.  The folding Helle is also gone.

 

JPIHFJy.png

 

For some reason, the ability to edit goes away quickly, so I cannot remove the non-functioning link.  Sorry.


Edited by TAHAWK, 04 July 2017 - 03:05 PM.

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#60 MattR

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 03:33 PM

If you go to Home -> BSA -> Camping -> Knives & Accessories -> Knives (through the menus) or

http://www.scoutstuf...ies/knives.html

There are 4 Helle knives.

 

Not sure what this is about, just trying to help.


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