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But I thought ceremonies were performed after dark...


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#1 Oldscout448

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:02 AM

I just got a look at the upcoming Ordeal schedule, the ceremony is to start at 4:00pm. So that everyone can eat dinner at 5:30. What happened to just after dark? You can see the parking lot and the dining hall from the ring in the daylight. No mysterious flickering fire and torch light? You will not even be able to see the candles at all. Our bonnets and stuff are getting old, they look ok in dim lighting but not in broad daylight. This is assured NOT to impress.imo. I'm told that everyone does it in the afternoon nowdays, Has this changed everywhere? If so I think we lost something magical just so the cooks don't have to lay out sandwiches at 9:00
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#2 sst3rd

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 02:57 PM

Oldscout448, Our lodge has made a similar decision. The Lodge Executive Committee made the decision last month to move all Ordeal Ceremonies to before dinner, so that all new members can enjoy dinner free of restrictions. This will open the evening to fellowship and chapter meetings that will better explain the OA and how it is organized. Of course, all of this is the answer to increased membership retention and growing the lodge. This is also the reason that our long time Lodge Adviser resigned. This also includes the chapter ceremony teams taking over the Ordeal Ceremonies Saturday afternoon, starting in 2015. I'll miss the night time ceremonies as well. It just gets better and better. sst3rd
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#3 qwazse

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 03:00 PM

Don't know about location. Our call-out is before dusk at summer camp. Son #2 says his ordeal ceremony was at dark. Not sure if that was before supper or cracker-barrel. We have several weekends to choose from, his schedule allowed for late spring.
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#4 desertrat77

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:16 PM

Whew, brotherhood of honor campers indeed. Scratch that, "honor society." Sounds like leadership just wants to get things wrapped up and on the road for home as soon as possible. No need to have the candidates under restrictions at dinner. Self imposed red tape by leadership.
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#5 SSScout

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:11 PM

The work is done by whoever shows up. If the folks that want to do it say 4pm, then that's the time. I am in agreement with you, the ceremony loses some of its panache by doing it FIRST, and in daylight too. Our local camp had a "Grand Opening Campfire" with the opportunity "to add your Troop's campfire ashes to the new fire circle" and later to collect souvenir ashes to take home. Billed to start at 4pm and last to 8pm, . when we arrived at 5pm, it was already done and all 25 people were cleaning up. 25 people from the whole council. No skits, no ceremony, when I offered our ashes, they said the fire was already out and thank you. Sad, we thought.
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#6 Sentinel947

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:51 AM

I remember my Ordeal Ceremony that night. It was 6 years ago but I will never forget it. It was so cool and memorable, and being at night really set a tone for the weekend.
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#7 Tokala

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:03 PM

There is nothing that says ceremonies must be held in the dark, after sunset, or after dinner. If you look at the Ordeal and it's tests, the ceremony really should be conducted before dinner. Either that or figure out a way to handle the 2 tests that would be violated by the leadership if dinner is held before the ceremony. My lodge has scheduled it both ways over the years.
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#8 Oldscout448

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:48 AM

Oldscout448,

Our lodge has made a similar decision. The Lodge Executive Committee made the decision last month to move all Ordeal Ceremonies to before dinner, so that all new members can enjoy dinner free of restrictions. This will open the evening to fellowship and chapter meetings that will better explain the OA and how it is organized. Of course, all of this is the answer to increased membership retention and growing the lodge. This is also the reason that our long time Lodge Adviser resigned. This also includes the chapter ceremony teams taking over the Ordeal Ceremonies Saturday afternoon, starting in 2015. I'll miss the night time ceremonies as well. It just gets better and better.

sst3rd

Not knowing the people in your lodge, I cannot say if this a good idea or not, but how about telling them " Our chapter team only does Ceremonies after dark, if you want it in the daylight have your lodge team do it."
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#9 mgood777

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 08:43 AM

My lodge started doing early ceremonies in the eighties, while I was still a youth member.

The youth membership, the Lodge Executive Committee, and the ceremonies team were against it.

The reasoning was that the new Ordeal members needed a good meal after working on little food all day. Brotherhood ceremony was after Ordeal ceremony. The dining hall crew (made up of adults) didn't want to be still cleaning up at 1:00 am. Several times we suggested having the Brotherhood ceremony before dinner, if that would help. But the men in the dining hall wanted to go to the Brotherhood ceremony, so they were against that.


Edited by mgood777, 05 April 2015 - 08:44 AM.

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#10 Stosh

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 10:34 AM

Kinda makes one wonder if the adult cooking crew is running the program and not the boys.

 

Stosh


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#11 mgood777

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 12:26 PM

Kinda makes one wonder if the adult cooking crew is running the program and not the boys.

 

I've just about exceeded my rant quota on my first day of posting so I shouldn't even start on that subject or y'all will think all I do is gripe. But . . .

The adults ran our Lodge :mad:

Boy Scout Troops are supposed to be run by the Patrol Leaders Council. I've seen more adult-run Troops than youth-run Troops.

The Lodge is supposed to be run by the Executive Committee, all members of which are under 21. These are experienced Scouts who've held leadership positions in their troops and I'm sure many of them have fought the adult/youth battle for control. So they should come to Executive Committee meetings well prepared.

Unfortunately, whatever was proposed at the meeting, the adults would keep us talking about it until they thought they had enough votes to go their way. I would frequently remind my fellow committee members that WE ran the Lodge. But when just about every youth member has an adult advisor, and most of those advisors were the fathers of the members they were advising . . . I could tell the adults "no," but most of their sons could not.

 

I'll have to post about the Battle of the Lawn Mower  :D (one of the few that we won) But that deserves it's own thread rather than cluttering up this one.


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#12 JasonG172

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 07:39 AM

Are you speaking of the part of the Ordeal where you receive your sash and recite the motto?  If so mine was done in the day as well.


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#13 Sentinel947

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 08:22 AM

Mine was done around 4:00 pm... back in 2008. 


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#14 LeCastor

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 08:32 AM

It's been just a tad over 20 years since my Ordeal ceremony but I remember it was dark and I had no idea where I was in a camp I otherwise would have been comfortable navigating.  What I really remember, though, is being so hungry and so tired that when I got to the dining hall I couldn't even eat and when I got to my tent I couldn't even sleep.   :eek:

 

The Lodge I am in now has recently started doing the before-sundown Ordeal ceremonies and following dinner with the Brotherhood ceremony. The reasoning (and I don't know who decided) is that the Ordeal guys will be able to eat dinner and hang out together while the other folks go to the Brotherhood ceremony after dinner.  Not sure if that makes sense to me, though.

 

I enjoyed the mystery of the pre-Ordeal and Ordeal ceremonies with little to no sunlight, personally.  


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#15 JasonG172

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 08:59 AM

There is fellowship Friday night, check in begins around 7, called into their respective units around 9 or 10.  Head to ceremony shortly afterwards then head to the area you will be sleeping in....of course under the stars! There is also fellowship Saturday night, we have a movie.


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#16 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 10:12 AM

Lodge growing up had ceremonies after dark.  "Dinner" for everyone was crackers and cheese.  After the Ordeal Ceremony, all Ordeal members left and had a true dinner.  Brotherhood and Vigils stayed until after the Brotherhood Ceremony was completed before we had a true dinner.


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#17 CalicoPenn

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 02:13 PM

Ceremonies were held at night, after dark.  Supper started at 5:30 and ran until 6:45 pm.  ALL are invited to supper.  The tests ended or were suspended at 5:30 (only the test of silence was reinstated after dinner until the ceremony takes place - for further reflection after supper).  At supper, full meals were served to all - candidates usually sat at the same table as members of their units, or with mixed tables of candidates and members of other units.  Arrowmen were encouraged to engage the candidates and get their impressions of the day, as well as to talk about their own experiences - at supper's end, the Lodge Chief would reinstate silent reflection for Ordeal candidates and would impose silent reflection of Brotherhood candidates with the instruction to reflect on their discussions at supper.  Active arrowmen not on the ceremonies team were encouraged to help the kitchen folks close up shop - it usually took less than 1/2 hour to get everything squared away.

 

Was it strictly by the book?  Depends on when you consider the end of the day - we always interpreted it to mean the end of the work day, which ended with the start of supper.  The feedback received during this time was invaluable to the lodge, and many folks, both candidates and arrowmen, always mentioned how that was one of the most meaningful things done all day.

 

We did receive pressure to hold the ceremonies earlier in the day, before supper, when the Spring Ordeal Weekend was held in our Wisconsin (5 hours away) camp, mostly from our LDS brothers so they could hit the road and be home before midnight, which would then be Sunday, though most of our LDS members completed Ordeal at our Fall Fellowship at the local (45 minutes away) camp.  That pressure went away when the local Stake carved out an exception for our Ordeal Weekends by clarifying that the OA was also a calling and not just something nice to do.  Not sure if other stakes throughout the country came up with the same elegant solution. 


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#18 Oldscout448

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 08:00 PM

 Interesting to see this topic back again,  scoutson #4 is on the ceremonies team for our little chapter ( has about a dozen active members) and we have managed to get the brotherhood ceremony moved to 7:30pm.   None of the under 21 members have ever seen an after dark ceremony. I hope its the start of a trend. 

  For what it is worth, my Ordeal ceremony started about 8:30 on October 4, 1974.  and I can state for a fact that I was cold, tired, and hungry. 

 

but it was one of the coolest things I had ever seen.   the team ( there hadto be about 20 of them) practiced year round just for these two weekends, and man did they put on a show!

 

The beadwork was amazing, the parts done from memory, the movements were smooth,

 

and that was the biggest fire I had ever seen!

 

In short I was so caught up, I plain forgot I was hungry untill it was all over


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#19 mgood777

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 06:13 PM

None of the under 21 members have ever seen an after dark ceremony.

 

That is sad.


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#20 jr56

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 11:53 AM

I remeber thd old time ceremonies, where the scouts actually knew their lines, had impressive props, and recited their lines with enthusiasm.   My lodge still conducts the ceremonies after dark, but they are pretty lame for the most part.


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