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Can I bring my younger son to scout campouts?


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#41 moosetracker

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 03:34 PM

Dear NewToScoutsDad, from AlmostNewToScoutsMom,

I totally sympathize and understand your position. I have a younger daughter who had to attend with me when my son's Cub Scout pack needed me last year.

My husband often works late, and is often called to work unexpectedly. We have no family where we live now, and I cannot afford to pay a sitter $50 so that I can go volunteer. Therefore, my daughter often accompanied me. She was quiet and well behaved, more so than some of the Tiger Cubs.

I think every pack and every troop are a bit different. The comments indicating that younger children of either gender are an annoyance hit me in a sore spot due to the behavior of the leaders of my particular pack. Your mileage may vary.

In our pack, only 3 dads volunteer: CM, CC, and the camping coordinator (whose son will bridge this year). Everything else is done by the moms. We all have younger children, boys and girls. Two of the lady volunteers have young babies.

After leaving the post of Treasurer this summer (details in other posts), I started volunteering with American Heritage Girls this year on behalf of my daughter. It is a much more pleasant atmosphere in which to volunteer than Cub Scouts was for me. There are some things in AHG culture that I think would be a nice addition to Scouting:

1. AHG Troops integrate different ages instead of separating them all the time. This is not to say that the older girls don't get a chance to focus only on themselves and age appropriate activities. They absolutely do.

However, it is part of the older girls' training to lead the younger girls in activities from time to time. This fall, the older girls have organized a hike, leading the younger girls. They also organized a sleepover for the girls.

I am grateful my 7 year old daughter has these very sharp and professional young ladies of 12-15 or so to look up to. They are wonderful role models. I believe it is also a good teaching experience for the older girls to learn to lead. Isn't leadership a trait Scouts should be learning?

2. AHG does a better job of making it easy for parents to volunteer and integrate their other children than the BSA, in my opinion, having volunteered for both groups. My son often accompanies me to his sister's meetings because our family situation requires it. He sometimes participates, as he did with our "box of goodies for the troops" project this week. Sometimes, he works on his homework. Not once has anyone in AHG complained.

What the BSA has communicated to me as a parent is that they expect me to be a BSA volunteer first, and a parent to my own kids (all of them) second. I can't do that. I got tired of my daughter being left out. I got her into a program that was good for her, and took my volunteer time along with me. So have many of the other very tired moms in our pack. Maybe some packs and troops are so flush with volunteers that they can afford to make it obnoxious to volunteer for the BSA. I don't really understand the BSA's reasoning.

My son's CM and CC both need to pull their heads out. I fully expect they will be looking around in a year with no other volunteers at all dimly trying to figure out what happened and why they're stuck doing everything themselves.

My jaw hit the floor when our CC this fall had the gall to call my friend whose son is in my son's den and ask her to do all the shopping for the fall campout (about 100 people). On 24 hours notice. She was 8 1/2 months pregnant at the time with two younger children and was in pain just walking. But, hey, like the CC said, she has a Costco membership and can save the pack money. And she's been way too nice to them for the last two years. She has quit completely as a Scout volunteer. Maybe if they'd been a little more polite and reasonable, she might have been willing to come back. Now, she's pissed and will likely never volunteer for the BSA again, justifiably.

So, when I read notes like the one in this thread complaining about how all those pesky younger siblings get in the way and the adult volunteers should make other arrangements so they can put the troop first, I just shake my head and hope the BSA will get a clue before they lose any more adults willing to volunteer.

GA Mom

True, and not true.. The SM did not bring along his daughters or under aged sons.. He brought along his boy scout aged sons.. The thing, is that the SM did not do the program for the scouts in the troop, he did it for his sons..

The only thing we get from the OP is that he wants to bring his under aged son with him for father/son bonding.. He did not post any reasoning why this was necessary to help the troop out of some crunch, or consider pros and cons of the situation, and come up with some rationalization of why the pros won out.. But, just simply he and his son.. No thought to the effect on the troop at all.

When that is all there is to go on, you show the guy the rule book, and that is that.. "NO". Please stay home with your son, if that is what you prefer.

PS. The boys nor SM(Dad) were obnoxious. Personally everyone liked them just fine, and all was fine until he took the SM reins.. The SM(Dad) was just not troop oriented, he was family oriented, and that caused a problem.
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#42 BadenP

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:05 PM

Here is how the FAQ on the subject is worded. Source page: http://www.scouting....ty/gen_faq.aspx And yes, it directly quotes the GTSS. However, to the OP, would you think differently if you had a wolf age or even a 16 yr old daughter? Would you bring her along?......Neither situation is part of the Boy Scout Program, it is just not scouting. There are some specific family oriented events by design - like Day Camp tot lots or PTC where family programming is included. This would not be one of those.

Q. Can a leader bring his or her younger children on a troop campout?
A.
The Camping section of the Guide to Safe Scouting states:

“If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers.”

Richard- It is time for you pencil pushers at National to start thinking outside the small box in determining what is and what is not scouting. National has created so many new superfluous rules and regulations that you are choking the life out of the ever shrinking scouting program. The GTSS is so poorly written and full of nonsense that is little more than a joke. How about you let the people in the field delivering the program have much more say and control in these type of situations. There are simple practical solutions to this and most other situations in scouting without the need to create more and more unenforceable and impractical rules at the National level.
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#43 moosetracker

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:53 PM

Here is how the FAQ on the subject is worded. Source page: http://www.scouting....ty/gen_faq.aspx And yes, it directly quotes the GTSS. However, to the OP, would you think differently if you had a wolf age or even a 16 yr old daughter? Would you bring her along?......Neither situation is part of the Boy Scout Program, it is just not scouting. There are some specific family oriented events by design - like Day Camp tot lots or PTC where family programming is included. This would not be one of those.

Q. Can a leader bring his or her younger children on a troop campout?
A.
The Camping section of the Guide to Safe Scouting states:

“If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers.”

BP This rule is definitely not new, and really if you read it. It doesn't say you cannot... period... It just says it is discouraged, because it is not healthy for the troop or the under aged youth..

Therefore, if you want to ruin your troop with pack level campouts, go ahead.. But, basically National really sees things more the way myself and Eagle92 see it.. It really should be used as a last resort, that the boys can not go on a trip without the parent with youth in tow..

So you have the control and the say.
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#44 moosetracker

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 05:45 AM

It's weird even though there have been others who have written after RichardB, he stays displayed as the last person to make a comment. I don't have anything to add, just seeing if a new message rather then a comment to RichardB will kick it out of being hung up on Richard.
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#45 Sentinel947

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 10:04 AM

Here is how the FAQ on the subject is worded. Source page: http://www.scouting....ty/gen_faq.aspx And yes, it directly quotes the GTSS. However, to the OP, would you think differently if you had a wolf age or even a 16 yr old daughter? Would you bring her along?......Neither situation is part of the Boy Scout Program, it is just not scouting. There are some specific family oriented events by design - like Day Camp tot lots or PTC where family programming is included. This would not be one of those.

Q. Can a leader bring his or her younger children on a troop campout?
A.
The Camping section of the Guide to Safe Scouting states:

“If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers.”

When I was a Scout I found it annoying when siblings tagged along. But the leaders allowed it. Now as an ASM, if bringing a non scout youth along is the only way to deliver the trip I'd say that's a fair exception. But by and large I agree with moose.
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#46 ScoutNut

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 10:56 AM

Dear NewToScoutsDad, from AlmostNewToScoutsMom,

I totally sympathize and understand your position. I have a younger daughter who had to attend with me when my son's Cub Scout pack needed me last year.

My husband often works late, and is often called to work unexpectedly. We have no family where we live now, and I cannot afford to pay a sitter $50 so that I can go volunteer. Therefore, my daughter often accompanied me. She was quiet and well behaved, more so than some of the Tiger Cubs.

I think every pack and every troop are a bit different. The comments indicating that younger children of either gender are an annoyance hit me in a sore spot due to the behavior of the leaders of my particular pack. Your mileage may vary.

In our pack, only 3 dads volunteer: CM, CC, and the camping coordinator (whose son will bridge this year). Everything else is done by the moms. We all have younger children, boys and girls. Two of the lady volunteers have young babies.

After leaving the post of Treasurer this summer (details in other posts), I started volunteering with American Heritage Girls this year on behalf of my daughter. It is a much more pleasant atmosphere in which to volunteer than Cub Scouts was for me. There are some things in AHG culture that I think would be a nice addition to Scouting:

1. AHG Troops integrate different ages instead of separating them all the time. This is not to say that the older girls don't get a chance to focus only on themselves and age appropriate activities. They absolutely do.

However, it is part of the older girls' training to lead the younger girls in activities from time to time. This fall, the older girls have organized a hike, leading the younger girls. They also organized a sleepover for the girls.

I am grateful my 7 year old daughter has these very sharp and professional young ladies of 12-15 or so to look up to. They are wonderful role models. I believe it is also a good teaching experience for the older girls to learn to lead. Isn't leadership a trait Scouts should be learning?

2. AHG does a better job of making it easy for parents to volunteer and integrate their other children than the BSA, in my opinion, having volunteered for both groups. My son often accompanies me to his sister's meetings because our family situation requires it. He sometimes participates, as he did with our "box of goodies for the troops" project this week. Sometimes, he works on his homework. Not once has anyone in AHG complained.

What the BSA has communicated to me as a parent is that they expect me to be a BSA volunteer first, and a parent to my own kids (all of them) second. I can't do that. I got tired of my daughter being left out. I got her into a program that was good for her, and took my volunteer time along with me. So have many of the other very tired moms in our pack. Maybe some packs and troops are so flush with volunteers that they can afford to make it obnoxious to volunteer for the BSA. I don't really understand the BSA's reasoning.

My son's CM and CC both need to pull their heads out. I fully expect they will be looking around in a year with no other volunteers at all dimly trying to figure out what happened and why they're stuck doing everything themselves.

My jaw hit the floor when our CC this fall had the gall to call my friend whose son is in my son's den and ask her to do all the shopping for the fall campout (about 100 people). On 24 hours notice. She was 8 1/2 months pregnant at the time with two younger children and was in pain just walking. But, hey, like the CC said, she has a Costco membership and can save the pack money. And she's been way too nice to them for the last two years. She has quit completely as a Scout volunteer. Maybe if they'd been a little more polite and reasonable, she might have been willing to come back. Now, she's pissed and will likely never volunteer for the BSA again, justifiably.

So, when I read notes like the one in this thread complaining about how all those pesky younger siblings get in the way and the adult volunteers should make other arrangements so they can put the troop first, I just shake my head and hope the BSA will get a clue before they lose any more adults willing to volunteer.

GA Mom

Georgia - As Scouter99 stated -Please do not generalize all of BSA based on your experiences with your own, local, Pack.

Yes, there are dysfunctional Packs out there, yours is definitely one of them. But they are NOT following the policies of BSA (hence - dysfunctional).

Also, your issues were with bringing younger siblings (boys OR girls) along to a CUB activity. The OP is talking about bringing a younger sibling to a BOY SCOUT activity.

Different program, different rules, different policies, horse of a different color, apples/oranges. I think/hope you get the idea.
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#47 RichardB

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 05:37 PM

Here is how the FAQ on the subject is worded. Source page: http://www.scouting....ty/gen_faq.aspx And yes, it directly quotes the GTSS. However, to the OP, would you think differently if you had a wolf age or even a 16 yr old daughter? Would you bring her along?......Neither situation is part of the Boy Scout Program, it is just not scouting. There are some specific family oriented events by design - like Day Camp tot lots or PTC where family programming is included. This would not be one of those.

Q. Can a leader bring his or her younger children on a troop campout?
A.
The Camping section of the Guide to Safe Scouting states:

“If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers.”

Not sure I understand what a pencil pusher is since I typically type or use a Pentel Energel .7 mm ball these days. I really used to love my Pentel .3 mm mechanical pencil though. I also have one of my Dad's and Uncle's drafting sets from the late 50's. Now those were some well built mechanical pencils back then but you still had to sharpen the lead.....

Is the real issue here "rules" and their real or percieved applicability or is it just pointing back to the fact that the Boy Scout program is for male youth of a certain age, doing certain things. Again, what is being asked by the OP is a good question, one that that has been asked, answered and supported with reference material. If you disagree feel free to work on a change to the program, that would be scoutlike.

Cannot agree that there are always simple and practical solutions with those who profess to be delivering one program and providing something different. Complicates matters.
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#48 SR540Beaver

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 03:07 PM

Wow! I can't believe that this topic has generated so much heat. Everyone needs to step back and realize that their troop is not the "norm". No troop is. Each one is unique and individual. I've learned this by being in a troop of about 15 boys, another troop of about 5 boys and another troop of 60......now 80 boys. I've been an ASM for 2 Jambos. I've served as a Campmaster and visited with many, many troops of every size and sort imaginable. Heck, I visited on one "troop" when I was Campmaster and there wasn't a boy in sight. I asked where their boys were and they told me that none of the boys could make the campout, so the adult leaders came by themselves. A to Z doesn't cover the different types of troops out there. I've seen troops where the boys and adults camp together and do nothing all day but poke sticks in the fire or nap. I've seen troops like my 60 boy troop that had every minute of the weekend program scheduled by the boys and they did things like climb/rappel, day hike, wilderness survival, canoeing, etc. Regardless of the size and type of troop, as long as the boys are planning their program, carrying it out and camping by patrol with a minimum of interaction by the SM and ASM's, who is at camp and who isn't should be fairly transparent. In our troops, the boys camped by patrol and did their own cooking, set-up, tear down, KP, etc. The adults and any younger children who came along did the same. They don't interact with the scouts. They don't participate in the program. They are merely camping in their own area and cooking as an adult patrol. It in no way interfers or interrupts the program being delivered. I know this to be true because I was involved in this method for 7 years. As a side note, our Cub resident camp has a new camp director. I helped staff the kitchen at the fall weekend camps they hold each weekend in October. We typically have around 350 to 400 campers on any given weekend. She did her job with her 6 month old daughter in a carrier on her back. I'd never seen that done before, but she did an outstanding job. I realize it isnt Boy Scout camping, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do and you find a way to make it work. If a leader needs to bring a younger child on a Boy Scout outing, it isn't the end of the world as long as you lay down some ground rules.
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#49 BadenP

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 08:08 PM

It's weird even though there have been others who have written after RichardB, he stays displayed as the last person to make a comment. I don't have anything to add, just seeing if a new message rather then a comment to RichardB will kick it out of being hung up on Richard.

Moose- You have to remember that the moderators here protect Richard B because he works for National. If anyone says ANYTHING negative to him they quickly delete their posts as they did with mine on this topic. In other words the administrators for this forum have become as weak minded as those at National who are determined to destroy the true scouting program and turn it into a classroom badge mill experience. Of course they will delete this post quickly so Richard B will not get upset and report them to National, lol.
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#50 SSScout

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 08:59 PM

SR540, you have pummeled the capped iron rod on its topknot. I just read thru the thread and I can say that there is nothing inherently wrong with bringing along a younger sibling on a Scout activity, so long as (1) the Unit agrees to it, (2) the parent keeps control of the child and does NOT expect the child to be allowed to participate in everything the older boys do, (3) the parent is not disappointed when the child gets tired and says "I wanna go home/take a nap/not do this" three miles into the woods. I found the story of the plumbing damage telling. I hope the parents realized their responsibility and held the children accountable and paid up. The local unit is just that. BSA has standards and guidelines , but it is all the local folks that make it happen (or not). AHG, I dare say, if you look far enough afield, you might find some uncomfortable events there, too. I have heard the same for GSUSA, too. Some really exceptional units, some not so. It all depends on the Adult Leader Attitudes. Not only may your mileage vary, the shocks on the rear axle may need replacing.
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#51 eghiglie

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 01:01 AM

At the cubbie level its a family event so yes. At the the boy scout level. No, unless your the 2nd leader and the event will be cancelled with out you, even then. If you go as an adult leader your there to pretend to not watch the boy scouts, your younger son will need attention and so forth. But as someone above mentioned ask the SM.
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#52 mgood777

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 11:43 AM

Old thread, I know, but this is something that strikes a nerve with me.

 

When I was Senior Patrol Leader (30 years ago :p ) we had a Troop Committee Chairman who would sometimes bring his Cub Scout age son on Boy Scout campouts. He was a distraction. Dad would go drink coffee with the other adults while Junior ran loose. I spent 50% of my time babysitting. "Jeremy don't do that. . . Jeremy, be quite. . . Jeremy, if you hit him with that stick and he punches you, I'm gonna laugh. And I'll tell you dad to SHOVE IT if he says anything to me or to him!"

 

The problem was the parent. Not taking responsibility for his kid and expecting the Troop SPL and PLs to take care of him. This seriously took away from my time to run my Troop.

 

If the only way to get the troup out camping is to bring the young 'uns, or you just think it will be a good idea to show them what Boy Scouts do, fine. Make sure you understand that the non-Scout is YOUR responsibility. Do not expect the Troop to include him in everything they do. (An activity here and there may be ok, if the parent is nearby to corral him if he gets out of hand.) Do not expect youth leaders who are (or should be) working hard to run the troop to take on the additional responsibility of keeping your child from destroying the camp. I was ready to hurt the kid. I was ready to fight the dad. This was a district camporee and we took the competition seriously. I needed to be doing a dozen things, none of them included babysitting a nine year old.


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#53 Stosh

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 12:25 PM

I don't allow this.  Every time I have approved it, I have regretted it.

 

Stosh

 

By the way, even if it is explicitly stated that the younger sibling must stay with the parent, it never works out that way.  They ALWAYS run off and become a problem.

 

Stosh


Edited by jblake47, 05 April 2015 - 12:26 PM.

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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#54 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 01:25 PM

IMHO, only time this shuld be allowed is Webelos looking at troops. I also do think that the Webelos should be buddied up with a Boy Scout and involved.

 

otherwise no.


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"Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt


#55 fred johnson

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 01:51 PM

Old topic ... but fully agree.  Though there can be some flexibility, the strong preference is boy scout camps are for boy scouts.  Adults are there to keep the boy scouts safe and to coach at times.  Bringing others is a distraction and can defeat the goals of scouting.  


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#56 Get Outdoors

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 01:51 PM

I'll take just about any kid on just about any outing regardless of age, sex, race......  Like someone said above, it's important to keep these non scouts out of the patrol method but we should always encourage the outdoor program every chance we get. FWI: I have two non scouts that joins us a few times a year. (Dad is a key ASM)  They make a lot of experienced scouts look like amateurs. They happen to be 13 and 16.....and female. 

 

However, you don't want to turn troop trips into family trips/vacations so it can be a very fine line.


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#57 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 02:06 PM

Very fine line indeed. A trip that we planned 10 months in advance, one that required a 7 hour one way drive turned into a nightmare because of siblings. Long story short, because the siblings were not prepared for the cold, rainy weather we encountered, NO ONE (emphasis) was allowed to do the trail because of the whining and complaining of the siblings being left out of it. To add insult to injury, one of the siblings stopped up a toilet, causing a major overflow at the church we were staying at. That caused the basement to be flooded.

 

As it is right now, I need to hold back my Webelos from taking advantage of the troop's open campout policy for Webelos.


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"Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt


#58 perdidochas

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 02:13 PM

Edit: I didn't realize I was posting to a Lazarus thread.  I deleted my comments for that reason.  


Edited by perdidochas, 27 July 2015 - 02:18 PM.

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#59 Scouter99

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 02:45 PM

I'll take just about any kid on just about any outing regardless of age, sex, race......  Like someone said above, it's important to keep these non scouts out of the patrol method but we should always encourage the outdoor program every chance we get.

People who are not scouts are not part of the outdoor program.  The rest based on this fallacy doesn't matter.


"The numbers in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty two. I suggest this number because in training boys myself I have found that sixteen was about as many I could deal with - in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each. I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two."

-Baden-Powell, Aids to Scoutmastership


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#60 packsaddle

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 03:38 PM

Edit: I didn't realize I was posting to a Lazarus thread.  I deleted my comments for that reason.  

 

What's wrong with posting to a 'Lazarus' thread? Have you seen "The Walking Dead"? (I'm not talking about political candidates)


Edited by packsaddle, 27 July 2015 - 03:38 PM.

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