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​Infamous Eagle Scouts?


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#1 NeverAnEagle

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:38 PM

It’s often publicized when at Eagle Scout earns a high rank elsewhere. (Think of Gerald Ford, Ross Perot, and Neil Armstrong.) It’s odd to claim the moral, ethical, or scholarly high ground for the entire organization when someone with the rank of Eagle happens to attain such accolades, epically when ignoring other, equally famous Eagle Scouts.

I found this particularly interesting: http://en.wikipedia....Charles_Whitman
Charles Joseph Whitman (June 24, 1941 – August 1, 1966) was an American engineering student and former U.S. Marine, who killed seventeen people and wounded thirty-two others in a mass shooting rampage located in and around the Tower of the University of Texas in Austin on the afternoon of August 1, 1966.

I’d be interested to see a list of other infamous Eagle Scouts; it does an organization well to humble themselves and realize that the accomplishments of its members can be equal parts good and bad.

All who earn the rank of Eagle are not good, and all who are good are not Eagles.

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#2 NeverAnEagle

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:45 PM

http://crime.about.c...chardangelo.htm
Profile of Serial Killer Richard Angelo; Angel of Death
Richard Angelo was 26 years old when he went to work at Good Samaritan Hospital on Long Island in New York. He had a background of doing good things for people as a former Eagle Scout and volunteer fireman.
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#3 Sentinel947

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 05:00 PM

What is the purpose of this thread other than to bash on Eagle Scouts? Yes, some Eagle Scouts don't live up to the ideals they professed. Some lose track of those ideals. I fail to see the point of this thread.
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#4 NeverAnEagle

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 05:06 PM

What is the purpose of this thread other than to bash on Eagle Scouts?

Yes, some Eagle Scouts don't live up to the ideals they professed. Some lose track of those ideals. I fail to see the point of this thread.

I saw an article where an Eagle Scout ended up accidentally scattering a ton of pot over an airport and was amused. I tried to verify it, but couldn't but came across these instead. Just found it interesting.
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#5 Sentinel947

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 05:17 PM

What is the purpose of this thread other than to bash on Eagle Scouts?

Yes, some Eagle Scouts don't live up to the ideals they professed. Some lose track of those ideals. I fail to see the point of this thread.

When I took Crime Prevention Merit Badge, the Counselor was a Patrol Officer in my town. He had recently returned to his job and other activities after being shot. He was shot by a young man after a car chase where Mary Jane was involved. The perp who shot the Officer had earned his Eagle Scout a few years earlier. I'm glad his run-in with a wayward Eagle Scout didn't take away his love of Scouting.



If you are willing, I'm thinking this might be good to merge with an older topic with a very similar topic: http://www.scouter.c...rrassed-or-both

When we have Eagle Scouts who are being less than exemplary citizens, some of it is unavoidable, but I can't help but think that sometimes it's a failure of the program to really instill the values. I suppose that's a case by case basis.



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#6 berliner

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 06:29 PM

I can tell you right now you wont find too many infamous eagles. Wanna know why? They leave no trace ^o^
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#7 skeptic

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:05 PM

Lot of us unfamous ones though.
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#8 Stosh

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 07:47 AM

I think the point is, just because a person fulfills the requirements for the Eagle Rank, it does not guarantee anything as to the outcome of that person's life. BSA goes to great lengths promoting the Eagle, but fails to fully understand that the rank is just that, the last rank available to the Boy Scout. It used to be First Class, but now with all the bells and whistles added, it has become an "Oooh, aaaah" rank that is supposed to mean "something" more. What that "something" is, is defined many different ways by many different people, mostly to self-impress themselves into thinking that "something" is something special. Maybe the Oooh-Aaah factor should be limited to what the individual scout defines for himself rather than everyone else running around adding Oooh-Aaahs to it. As a person who has been active in the outdoors for 59 years (camping, hunting, fishing, canoeing/kayaking, hiking, etc. etc.), 8 as a youth scout and 35 as an adult scouter (fully trained from Cub Scouts through Venturing, MS from UofScouting, WB) , I can assure you that I am not an Eagle Scout (2nd Class). Never thought it was important enough to go after. I have always felt the BSA program was more of a way for young men to develop character and leadership through their experience. I have disassociated the rank system from that and as this thread points out, there has always been such a disconnect whether people want to admit it or not. Stosh
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#9 Basementdweller

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:00 AM

I will step in on some of these threads when mom's and dad's and even unit leaders get over zealous about Eagle. Bragging how their boy is special, Take a look at the idiocy over at Bryan on scouting on the Eagle threads, Blake has it right, it is just completing a check list and lad with enough self discipline and drive can earn it. Doesn't make them any more or less of a person than they already are. Last court of Honor.during my 5 minutes, I mentioned that my Job was to make sure as many boys as possible EARNED first class. While Eagle is nice and recognized, More boys with First Class have saved their live and the lives of other than Eagle. first Class makes you more ready for the every day world than Eagle. One of my favorite quotes was from a college Dean "Honor and High achieving Students bring our University Honors, But the C student brings us new buildings and better facilities." So I gotta ask, looking at the muckity muck pics, what exactly is the Difference between and Eagle scout and a Distinguished Eagle scout.
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#10 Sentinel947

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:30 AM

I think the point is, just because a person fulfills the requirements for the Eagle Rank, it does not guarantee anything as to the outcome of that person's life. BSA goes to great lengths promoting the Eagle, but fails to fully understand that the rank is just that, the last rank available to the Boy Scout. It used to be First Class, but now with all the bells and whistles added, it has become an "Oooh, aaaah" rank that is supposed to mean "something" more. What that "something" is, is defined many different ways by many different people, mostly to self-impress themselves into thinking that "something" is something special.

Maybe the Oooh-Aaah factor should be limited to what the individual scout defines for himself rather than everyone else running around adding Oooh-Aaahs to it.

As a person who has been active in the outdoors for 59 years (camping, hunting, fishing, canoeing/kayaking, hiking, etc. etc.), 8 as a youth scout and 35 as an adult scouter (fully trained from Cub Scouts through Venturing, MS from UofScouting, WB) , I can assure you that I am not an Eagle Scout (2nd Class). Never thought it was important enough to go after.

I have always felt the BSA program was more of a way for young men to develop character and leadership through their experience. I have disassociated the rank system from that and as this thread points out, there has always been such a disconnect whether people want to admit it or not.

Stosh

I gotta agree. While I earned my Eagle I've always viewed it in the context that it symbolizes my whole experience in Scouting, and not the earning of the rank itself. Through that context it means alot to me. The rank itself is not terribly difficult to earn with time and persistance, but HOW it is earned matters. When we turn it into a checklist driven by overzealous parents then yes, I think the award loses the meaning it should have.



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#11 Sentinel947

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:39 AM

I will step in on some of these threads when mom's and dad's and even unit leaders get over zealous about Eagle. Bragging how their boy is special, Take a look at the idiocy over at Bryan on scouting on the Eagle threads,

Blake has it right, it is just completing a check list and lad with enough self discipline and drive can earn it. Doesn't make them any more or less of a person than they already are.


Last court of Honor.during my 5 minutes, I mentioned that my Job was to make sure as many boys as possible EARNED first class. While Eagle is nice and recognized, More boys with First Class have saved their live and the lives of other than Eagle. first Class makes you more ready for the every day world than Eagle.

One of my favorite quotes was from a college Dean "Honor and High achieving Students bring our University Honors, But the C student brings us new buildings and better facilities."

So I gotta ask, looking at the muckity muck pics, what exactly is the Difference between and Eagle scout and a Distinguished Eagle scout.

The point is to make our Scouts into better citizens and people, earning First Class and Eagle should facilitate that if the parents back the heck off and let an experienced Scoutmaster like yourself run your program that aim will be filled.



I think the worth of the Eagle Scout rank is highly subjective. but an Eagle Scout Rank earned by simply filling out the checklist on bare requirements and then booking it speaks alot to what the Eagle Rank is worth.



What bothers me about Eagle Scouts is it builds a superiority complex. With fancy neckerchiefs and all the like. It's as annoying as the Adult leader with a knot salad over his breast pocket.



I don't necessarily agree with Eagle shaming that sometimes goes on here, but I do think National has given too much weight to the Eagle Rank, and even worse in my mind, it's not in the right areas. Their focus is all on Eagle's and how they achieve, which might play well to the helicopter parents I guess.



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#12 Horizon

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 12:42 PM

I think this is interesting. We had a case locally a few years ago of a boy on graduation night from high school breaking into cars and stealing. Since the same paper had published his Eagle photo, the story became "Eagle arrested for breaking into cars". I used that as a Scoutmaster's minute topic - focusing on how earning Eagle, or any Scout rank, is only the beginning - that we have to live it for life, and that we will always be identified for it. That and the Mike Rowe letter help bring Eagle's back to the earth.
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#13 MattR

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 05:08 PM

The requirements for Eagle are busy work. That's not to say that all the Eagle scouts are junior paper pushers, but quite a few are. If what we preach is outdoor skills and service then make those the requirements for Eagle. I really like the "take your patrol on a backpacking trip" for First Class. That's a great test of skill. Service hours for Star and Life are a joke. 21 merit badges where most seem to be doable in 3 hours could be completely revamped. I'd rather see 10 merit badges that take 50 hours each. Scouts would really know first aid if they spent 50 hours on it. There really are few tests of skill in all the requirements. If a boy passes a test of skill then he'll respect it. If it's just going through the motions then he won't respect it. The real problem is that scouts know bs when they see it. They know it's busy work but they also know we make a big deal out of it. So they do the busy work and then they forget about it. It's not the scouts, it's the adults, as usual.
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#14 packsaddle

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 05:31 PM

I will step in on some of these threads when mom's and dad's and even unit leaders get over zealous about Eagle. Bragging how their boy is special, Take a look at the idiocy over at Bryan on scouting on the Eagle threads,

Blake has it right, it is just completing a check list and lad with enough self discipline and drive can earn it. Doesn't make them any more or less of a person than they already are.


Last court of Honor.during my 5 minutes, I mentioned that my Job was to make sure as many boys as possible EARNED first class. While Eagle is nice and recognized, More boys with First Class have saved their live and the lives of other than Eagle. first Class makes you more ready for the every day world than Eagle.

One of my favorite quotes was from a college Dean "Honor and High achieving Students bring our University Honors, But the C student brings us new buildings and better facilities."

So I gotta ask, looking at the muckity muck pics, what exactly is the Difference between and Eagle scout and a Distinguished Eagle scout.

I get the arrogance part. Most of the time, unless they're completely delusional, life will offer some reality checks. I disagree with this: "The point is to make our Scouts into better citizens and people..."

We don't make them. We give them opportunities to make for themselves. Moreover, while National may tout Eagle as some kind of pinnacle of achievement, mostly it's the rest of us who 'sanctify' the rank with our admiration. Sometimes it's deserved, sometimes not.
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#15 Sentinel947

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 05:44 PM

I will step in on some of these threads when mom's and dad's and even unit leaders get over zealous about Eagle. Bragging how their boy is special, Take a look at the idiocy over at Bryan on scouting on the Eagle threads,

Blake has it right, it is just completing a check list and lad with enough self discipline and drive can earn it. Doesn't make them any more or less of a person than they already are.


Last court of Honor.during my 5 minutes, I mentioned that my Job was to make sure as many boys as possible EARNED first class. While Eagle is nice and recognized, More boys with First Class have saved their live and the lives of other than Eagle. first Class makes you more ready for the every day world than Eagle.

One of my favorite quotes was from a college Dean "Honor and High achieving Students bring our University Honors, But the C student brings us new buildings and better facilities."

So I gotta ask, looking at the muckity muck pics, what exactly is the Difference between and Eagle scout and a Distinguished Eagle scout.

Packsaddle, I'll buy that. "We give them opportunities to make themselves" I like how you phrased that.
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#16 Kudu

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 06:20 PM


I’d be interested to see a list of other infamous Eagle Scouts;
All who earn the rank of Eagle are not good

Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca, and his anti-Scouting campaign!

"Did you know that there was a time when to be a First Class Scout--you guys didn't know this I bet--did you guys have to learn how to catch a runaway horse to be a First Class Scout? When was the last time you saw a runaway horse?"


Chorus from the Audience: "Tuesday"


http://inquiry.net/l...with_adults.htm


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#17 NeverAnEagle

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:34 PM


I’d be interested to see a list of other infamous Eagle Scouts;
All who earn the rank of Eagle are not good

Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca, and his anti-Scouting campaign!

"Did you know that there was a time when to be a First Class Scout--you guys didn't know this I bet--did you guys have to learn how to catch a runaway horse to be a First Class Scout? When was the last time you saw a runaway horse?"


Chorus from the Audience: "Tuesday"


http://inquiry.net/l...with_adults.htm

Well, I guess there better off than me, because I haven't seen a run-away horse since September. LOL!
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#18 NeverAnEagle

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:38 PM

I'm glad you Gents are enjoying this. I was thinking something like this could become a SM min. Maybe paint a profile of two guys (One of them above) and some other chap and ask the boys to identify who the Eagle is. I'd bet the boys wouldn't ever associate a criminal with the rank of Eagle. Might get them thinking along the lines of actions speaking louder than words. They can earn they rank, but the rank doesn't make them a respectable citizen.
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#19 Sentinel947

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:41 PM

I'm glad you Gents are enjoying this.

I was thinking something like this could become a SM min.
Maybe paint a profile of two guys (One of them above) and some other chap and ask the boys to identify who the Eagle is.
I'd bet the boys wouldn't ever associate a criminal with the rank of Eagle. Might get them thinking along the lines of actions speaking louder than words. They can earn they rank, but the rank doesn't make them a respectable citizen.

Or you could phrase it by comparing one of the distinguished people you mentioned in the OP and one of your examples of a less than distinguished Eagle. Although making your Scouts associate the rank of Eagle with criminals and murderers is probably not the idea of the century.



I have one I'd like to use, (I think I somewhat appropriated it from a member on the forums here, but I forget whom. (If you remember claim your credit!!!!!)



I hold up an Eagle rank badge. and ask "How much is this worth?" Scouts probably don't have a reply. I then ask a few Scouts or Parents who had earned Eagle, and they probably give the generic "Alot" "priceless" whatever.

I build off that saying, "It costs the BSA about 2 dollars to produce this patch, but it's the skills, the friends, and the character you gain from Scouting that truly matters and gives the Eagle Rank it's value. If you earn it, will yours be worth 2 dollars? Or will it be worth more than that?"



That might be a bit too positive on the Eagle rank for you, but I think it puts the Eagle Scout rank into the perspective I want it to be. I don't quite understand where the Eagle Rank hate comes from on this forum.



Respectfully,

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#20 Horizon

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:01 AM

I'm glad you Gents are enjoying this.

I was thinking something like this could become a SM min.
Maybe paint a profile of two guys (One of them above) and some other chap and ask the boys to identify who the Eagle is.
I'd bet the boys wouldn't ever associate a criminal with the rank of Eagle. Might get them thinking along the lines of actions speaking louder than words. They can earn they rank, but the rank doesn't make them a respectable citizen.

I like that Sentinel - sounds like the passage in Heinlein's Starship Troopers when the teach gives Rico a ribbon for first place, and Rico tears it up and throws it away - stating that he only earned 4th. Becomes a message about the value of something you have earned, vs just been given. $2 for a Eagle patch sounds like another message - offer to sell an Eagle patch, then ask if that makes them an Eagle.

Needs work - but I think I can work something out.
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