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Can a SM ban OA elections?


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#81 Col. Flagg

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:04 PM

Only a matter of time before BSA removes the term "master" due to the historically injurious connotations.  :rolleyes:  ;)


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#82 krypton_son

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:10 PM

Only a matter of time before BSA removes the term "master" due to the historically injurious connotations.  :rolleyes:  ;)

 

Lol, that wouldn't surprise me at all.


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#83 David CO

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 01:41 PM

In 1915, it was very common for young men to learn a trade through apprenticeship.  If a boy wanted to be a carpenter, he would learn his skills under the supervision of a master carpenter.  A plumber's apprentice would learn under a master plumber.

 

BSA was started by a newspaper publisher.  In the newspaper business, back in 1915, there were many skilled jobs that used the apprentice system to teach young men and boys.  For example, a printer's apprentice would learn his trade skills from a master printer.

 

I believe this is the meaning intended by the founders of BSA.  

 

I am not a big fan of political correctness, particularly when it involves people reading into a word something that was never intended.

 

I don't think any "historically injurious connotations" were ever intended, so I have no problem with using the term Scoutmaster.


Edited by David CO, 01 February 2017 - 01:56 PM.

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#84 Hedgehog

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 07:39 AM

I remember reading somewhere that Baden-Powell wasn't happy about the BSA when it used the term "Scoutmaster" for it's adult leader.  He saw the negative in the term "Master". 

 

 

I like the Venturing term "Advisor."  At summer camp when the staff would say "Adult Leaders" I'd inform them that the term is an oxymoron.


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#85 Stosh

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 11:41 AM

Not only that, the adults aren't supposed to be the leaders in a properly run troop.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#86 gischibeads

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 11:59 AM

Seems to me, as quite often, people forget that the SM does not run the troop. It should be run by youth. Command decisions in general should be consensus of a committee if one exists. 


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#87 fred johnson

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 12:11 PM

I am not a big fan of political correctness, ...

 

 

Sometimes when I need to decompress, I watch a youtube video of Don Rickles at a Dean Martin roast. 


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#88 Back Pack

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 08:30 PM

Not only that, the adults aren't supposed to be the leaders in a properly run troop.


True. But in this instance, if an SM does not want to recommend anyone that's one time an adult can with in the rules derail a program. Of course he's going to have to explain why.
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#89 David CO

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 12:10 AM

Some changes have taken place since this topic was first introduced.  It is now possible that a unit could have significantly different membership standards than the OA.  This might cause a unit to shy away from OA.

 

But my answer stays the same.  If the Scoutmaster has the support of the CO, then yes, he/she can ban OA elections.


Edited by David CO, 04 February 2017 - 12:12 AM.

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#90 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 02:54 PM

Unfortunately the answer is yes.  And I say unfortunately because the OA is a great tool to retain older Scouts, and invigorate the troop.

 

Me personally, I would like to know why and have a chat. The SM may not know a lot about the OA.

 

Real situation occurred to me when I was an OA chapter advisor. I found out that one Scout's mother would not let her son join the OA. Spent over an hour and a half on the phone talking to her about her concerns, what the OA really does, etc. She got a lot of malarky off the internet, and wanted to know if the OA is so special why no one in the troop was in the OA, nor the old long time SM or the new SM (whom I didn't know as they just took over), if the OA was so special. I told her don't know why the members of the troop were not active (sash and dash), nor who the new SM was. But the old SM was not only a member, but a Vigil Honor member who served as a lodge chief, and section chief when he was a youth in the OA.


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#91 Back Pack

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 09:24 AM

What bsa policy allows an SM to ban elections totally. I'd like to see that in writing.
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#92 Stosh

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 01:18 PM

What bsa policy allows an SM to ban elections totally. I'd like to see that in writing.

 

Whether it says so in any official print doesn't alter the reality of any SM's actions in the field.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#93 HelpfulTracks

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 05:12 PM

At the end of the day the Unit leader must sign off on those put up for election to the OA. So if the Unit leader refuses to sign off he can effectively ban the election.

However, I do not believe that doing so follows the ScoutnOath and Law. By refusing to sign off the Unit leader is in effect saying that none of his scouts meet the requirements. Since the only subjective requirements are if the Scout in question meets the the Scout spirit and adherence to Oath and Law requirements, he is in effect saying that he scouts do not (assuming they meet rank and camping requirements).

If he truly believes that to be the case I would question his effectiveness as a Unit leader. If none of his scouts adhere to the Oath and Law and do not show Scout spirit, he isn't doing a very good job as a Unit leader.

Hopefully leaving Helpful Tracks
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#94 Col. Flagg

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 12:08 PM

Whether it says so in any official print doesn't alter the reality of any SM's actions in the field.

 

Quite true. We ran in to a troop doing ATVs this past weekend. What folks do and what they're allowed to do are two different animals. I was also curious to see if there was some hidden, hard to find BSA rule that said SMs could not allow OA elections. I agree that saying the Scouts may not qualify by not having exhibited the Oath or Law gives the SM that option, but you'd have to have a pretty significant failure of leadership (by the SM) to get to that point. 


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#95 krikkitbot

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 03:46 PM

What bsa policy allows an SM to ban elections totally. I'd like to see that in writing.

 

 

The Scoutmaster or Varsity Scout Coach holds the responsibility of certifying a Scout’s eligibility before placement on an Order of the Arrow election ballot. The unit leader’s certification is as of the date of the election, and any Scout who meets the camping and other requirements as of that date should be listed on the election ballot. This approval is not one of preferential treatment or specific selection for membership rooted in the unit leader’s own vision, but one of qualifying a candidate for eligibility. By including a Scout’s name on the list of those whose names should appear on an election ballot, the unit leader certifies that: 

 

  • The Scout is a currently registered active member of the troop or team 
  • The Scout exhibits Scout spirit by living in accordance with the Scout Oath and Law 
  • The Scout fulfills all other Order of the Arrow membership requirements Clearly, the unit leader’s approval is earned through merit in Scouting. 

 

The unit leader has two roles with the OA: an administrative certification that the objective requirements are met and a more judgment-oriented one with the Scout spirit requirement that the Scout, in his or her opinion, has been a “good Scout” and lives up to the obligations taken in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. This requirement helps to uphold the high standard that OA membership warrants.

 

http://www.oa-bsa.or...ections2015.pdf


Edited by krikkitbot, 06 February 2017 - 04:02 PM.

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