packsaddle 753 Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Seems to me like we should be trying to help these boys instead of figuring out how to 'come down' on them. BDPT00 has a point that there is a LOT we don't know about this and yet those boys are already convicted. Wow. I guess we've been lucky not to have had to confront something like this as an occurrence during a unit event. But even if arrested outside of the scouting realm, this community has been supportive of turning them around rather than dealing harsh punishment. I do understand that we seem to be unique in this but in this community, PTI has worked quite well. Of course that's only available under limited conditions. Link to post Share on other sites
tomnh 10 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Wow - some are quick to condemn with so little information. On the one hand we have an eagle scout candidate who has for the last ~7 years (presumably) demonstrated that he is a good kid and is trustworthy, loyal, etc. Presumably if this were not the case he would not be within inches of earning Eagle. On the other hand we have one scout who we don't know anything about (but presumably has less credibility than the first) who thinks he saw something that may or may not have been marijuana. I think you need more facts before drawing any conclusions. I've learned many times that things are not always as they appear when dealing with teenage boys. When I think of the Eagle and near-Eagle scouts I know I have a high degree of confidence in them. It would take a lot more than this to make me think otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I think some of you need to read a bit slower. I see many people talking about IF it is true. This is speculation. I don't see too many here hanging people for no evidence. They are talking about how they would handle the situation IF it were true. Don't see anything wrong with that. Link to post Share on other sites
Fehler 118 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Alleged pot use is alleged. Unless you have two or more witnesses, or the boy admits it, you have to take his word as a scout. You aren't a jury, you can't convict based on rumors or the "everyone knows he's a doper" myth. Acting like a hippy/stoner is not proof. Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 This is the unreliable thing about hypotheticals: until we actually confront a real situation and know the specifics, we don't REALLY know what we'd do in response. The thing is, despite the tiny amount of information we have about this situation and the fact that we KNOW almost nothing about it, some of us HAVE been quick to provide their reactions AS IF the worst scenario was true. And it's ok for them to have those kinds of thought excercises. But I think it is equally easy, IF they want to play with those scenarios, to respond FIRST with how to HELP those hypothetical boys in that hypothetical situation. Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 This is the unreliable thing about hypotheticals: until we actually confront a real situation and know the specifics, we don't REALLY know what we'd do in response. The thing is, despite the tiny amount of information we have about this situation and the fact that we KNOW almost nothing about it, some of us HAVE been quick to provide their reactions AS IF the worst scenario was true. And it's ok for them to have those kinds of thought excercises. But I think it is equally easy, IF they want to play with those scenarios, to respond FIRST with how to HELP those hypothetical boys in that hypothetical situation. Ok...so hypothetically...if the kid did smoke dope...he has broken the law, broken his oath and promise and should not make Eagle. How's that? Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Krampus, the boy is in trouble on several levels. It seems to me that the fate of scout advancement is less important than to trying to help him turn things around somehow. Yes, if efforts to HELP the boy fail, then I would support closing some advancement options. Big deal! If that's the case the real damage is already done. I happen to know many cases in which teenagers who make really stupid decisions turn their lives around and serve as great examples for others. Would you slam the door on all those? Is there no room at all for redemption? Let me put it in different terms. If a boy tried to cross a stream at high water and was swept away, I would gladly risk my life to try to save him. Here, the boy may have tried something that could be just as life-changing down the road. The risk is that he will eventually lose his life. The last thing I'm going to worry about is some stupid advancement question. To me there is a much more pressing threat that I am willing to sacrifice greatly to avoid if I think I can help this boy avoid that 'cliff' that he's running headlong toward. (this mixed metaphor was brought to you by Packsaddle) Whether he makes Eagle or not, to me, is just not as important a question and certainly is one that can be answered after the real problem is addressed. Speaking hypothetically, of course. Link to post Share on other sites
DeanRx 69 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I think the best approach is to interview the two other kids. Let them know they do not have the option of not being involved. They may choose not to remember much, but at least as adult leaders, you have done your due dilligence. As to whether this should disqualify the lad from receiving his Eagle award, Hmmm... thats a tough one. Would it be hypocritical for a pot-smoker to get Eagle? Probably. Would it be hypocritical to not allow a lad a second chance if he made a genuine appology for his actions? Definately. We as scouters sometimes are very quick to forget that we are dealing with YOUTH. For the most part, good youth, but young men just the same. Young men change, they expiriment, they test limits. Johnny goodie toe shoes one day, the next cussing like a sailor on shore leave. One day not interested in girls, the next trying to get to second base with the first girlfriend they have. I'm inclined to say that Eagle being off the table has a lot more to do with HOW the scout conducts himself AFTER being confronted for his alleged actions. Is he defiant? Is he contrite in the face of multiple whitnesses? Does he cop to doing the deed and say he's sorry, It won't happen again? Does he self refer to a treatment porgram? All of those outcomes bear greatly on whether a group of adults should stand in the way of an achievement this lad has worked towards for the last 3 to 5 years (maybe more). I agree we need to have standards and drug use has no place in scouting or on a campout. However, one of our standards should also be forgiveness and the ability of someone to have a chance to LEARN from their mistakes. You drop the Eagle and kick him out of the troop. All you've taught the boy is, "You can only trust these folks as long as you behave by their standards... if you slip, they'll cut you off at the knees..... don't trust anyone in life.... just don't get caught." Are those the life lessons we really want this boy to leave scouting with? On top of all this - we are assuming the kid really did these things. I know its hard to wrap our heads around, but there is a chance (albeit very slim) that a couple boys don't like this guy and could come up with a collaborated story to get him in trouble / kicked out. Kids can be very devious that way too. The local leaders know the kids involved best and they know the reputation of those involved. When making their decission, the adult needs to be less concerned about what others think of HIM and more concerned about what is in the best interest of the boy affected and the rest of the boys in the troop. Dean Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Krampus, the boy is in trouble on several levels. It seems to me that the fate of scout advancement is less important than to trying to help him turn things around somehow. Yes, if efforts to HELP the boy fail, then I would support closing some advancement options. Big deal! If that's the case the real damage is already done. I happen to know many cases in which teenagers who make really stupid decisions turn their lives around and serve as great examples for others. Would you slam the door on all those? Is there no room at all for redemption? Let me put it in different terms. If a boy tried to cross a stream at high water and was swept away, I would gladly risk my life to try to save him. Here, the boy may have tried something that could be just as life-changing down the road. The risk is that he will eventually lose his life. The last thing I'm going to worry about is some stupid advancement question. To me there is a much more pressing threat that I am willing to sacrifice greatly to avoid if I think I can help this boy avoid that 'cliff' that he's running headlong toward. (this mixed metaphor was brought to you by Packsaddle) Whether he makes Eagle or not, to me, is just not as important a question and certainly is one that can be answered after the real problem is addressed. Speaking hypothetically, of course. Packsaddle, these are two very different issues: Assuming there is evidence he did drugs then: 1) No Eagle. Too many rules broken as well as laws. And as was pointed out previously, likely not his first time smoking the stuff. 2) Saving the soul. Of course you do this. but at this point the unit works with the CO and parents to get the kid help. But, IMHO, that's where it stops officially for the unit. You want the kid to get straight and to not become another statistic, but the unit has a duty to the other Scouts to make sure the unit is a safe place. If the Scout gets help and comes back, that is up to the CO and the unit if they take him back. Not an easy issue. But if it was my troop I would want the kid to get serious help and, sadly, I think the trust would be a long, long time in coming back before I let the kid out of my sight. Link to post Share on other sites
DeanRx 69 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Broken the oath and broken the law = no Eagle.... Hmmm, yeah... How many adult leaders have ever driven 5 mph over the speed limit on a scout outing? BROKEN THE LAW How many adult leaders have ever padded their charitiable contribution on their tax return? BROKEN THE LAW How many adult leaders have gone out in a non-scouting funciton and had a little too much to drink, or used bad language, or smoked, or had sex with someone prior to marriage? BROKEN YOUR OATH Before we as adults begin to throw the hypothetical stones at a scout, we better get our own houses in order folks! Just because you make a mistake in life, it doesn't disqualify you from being a good person. It doesn't disqualify you from grace. It certainly shouldn't disqualify you from being an Eagle scout as a lad. Link to post Share on other sites
Sentinel947 1205 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I've avoided weighing in for a few days. But I feel like I should speak up. This young man is at the gates of earning his Eagle. Did he break the law? Yes. But I personally feel some mercy is in order. We all make mistakes. I think he needs some support and counseling, and I don't feel like his one boneheaded mistake should erase the positive contributions. Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Broken the oath and broken the law = no Eagle.... Hmmm, yeah... How many adult leaders have ever driven 5 mph over the speed limit on a scout outing? BROKEN THE LAW How many adult leaders have ever padded their charitiable contribution on their tax return? BROKEN THE LAW How many adult leaders have gone out in a non-scouting funciton and had a little too much to drink, or used bad language, or smoked, or had sex with someone prior to marriage? BROKEN YOUR OATH Before we as adults begin to throw the hypothetical stones at a scout, we better get our own houses in order folks! Just because you make a mistake in life, it doesn't disqualify you from being a good person. It doesn't disqualify you from grace. It certainly shouldn't disqualify you from being an Eagle scout as a lad. Lost in all of this is the message being sent to the OTHER Scouts in that troop. If it is known this guy smoked pot (and perhaps did it more than once), got caught and nothing other than a stern talking to and a few meetings with some counselor was the result, exactly what message are we sending to THOSE boys? Link to post Share on other sites
Sentinel947 1205 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 "Lost in all of this is the message being sent to the OTHER Scouts in that troop. If it is known this guy smoked pot (and perhaps did it more than once), got caught and nothing other than a stern talking to and a few meetings with some counselor was the result, exactly what message are we sending to THOSE boys?" Certainly valid. Certianly a valid thought. Very similar to an older thread I remember about a Scout pulling out a knife during an arguement. Obviously the BSA has rules. This is an older Scout, and he should know better. He is supposed to be a role model in his troop, and he broke not just the Troop or the BSA's rules, but the law. However, ultimately I'm an idealist. I'd love for this young man to have the consequences of his actions so he learns a lesson, (assuming he actually was smoking something) and still make his Eagle. But I don't know if those two outcomes are compatable with one another. Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Krampus, the boy is in trouble on several levels. It seems to me that the fate of scout advancement is less important than to trying to help him turn things around somehow. Yes, if efforts to HELP the boy fail, then I would support closing some advancement options. Big deal! If that's the case the real damage is already done. I happen to know many cases in which teenagers who make really stupid decisions turn their lives around and serve as great examples for others. Would you slam the door on all those? Is there no room at all for redemption? Let me put it in different terms. If a boy tried to cross a stream at high water and was swept away, I would gladly risk my life to try to save him. Here, the boy may have tried something that could be just as life-changing down the road. The risk is that he will eventually lose his life. The last thing I'm going to worry about is some stupid advancement question. To me there is a much more pressing threat that I am willing to sacrifice greatly to avoid if I think I can help this boy avoid that 'cliff' that he's running headlong toward. (this mixed metaphor was brought to you by Packsaddle) Whether he makes Eagle or not, to me, is just not as important a question and certainly is one that can be answered after the real problem is addressed. Speaking hypothetically, of course. So what makes a lad worth saving???? and does he want saved or will his parents welcome your intervention????? Sure Talk with him and his parents, some lads will keep running away from you just so you will continue to chase them. Link to post Share on other sites
Peregrinator 85 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Baden-Powell wrote that a scout who told a lie would cease to be a scout. Do any of you throw boys out of your troops for lying just once? Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now