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Anyone else seen the on-line Anti OA items Re: similarity to Masonic Order?


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#21 NWScouter

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:51 AM

Im ELCA also, and hold the Lamb Award plus the Vigil Honor. If we were to go to a Missouri Synod more than likely we would be refused communion, at WELS we would. MS pastors have been disciplined for co-officiating in everything from weddings rites when their child married a child of an ELCA pastor to the most famous one of a District President participating in a multi-faith prayer service in New York after 9-11. This traces back to the founding of MS back in the 1840s by German Lutherans who fled the kingdom of Prussia when the king combined the Lutheran and Reformed Churches because he wanted only one Protestant Church. After numerous jailing of pastors they and their flocks picked up an moved to the American West (now Mid-West). They are very concerned that their faith be not compromised or muddied The quotes come from the official website of MS And WELS just put Mason and Scouts in the search. The Catholic quote comes from a Google search on Roman Catholic and Mason.
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#22 John-in-KC

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:58 PM

Narraticong and I are both members of Missouri parishes. Rest assured, I'd see Matthew 18 so fast it would make my head swim if I told Pastor I'd joined a Masonic Lodge.
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#23 Eagle92

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 04:15 PM

in reference to Catholic Churches and BSA, if a parish is having priests come and go, ther e may have a parish council or deacon who is anti-BSA. that happend to my old troop: when the priest left, the head of the parish council didn't want us.
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#24 scoutldr

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 08:32 AM

THe local Lutheran WELS church just built a new bldg and relocated about a half mile down the road from me. I was thinking of either organizing new units there or moving my unit from the Methodist church that doesn't care if we exist or not. Guess I'll forget that idea.
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#25 BadenP

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 02:24 PM

From NW's post I think you can see why the Catholic Church and scouting had such a rocky start and still has a somewhat strained relationship. Unless the priest has a scouting background I can guarantee through experience they will not be open to scouts in their parish. The sad point is that many catholic parishes youth groups are floundering in both numbers and interest and a well done scouting program could help that, I know because I did just that in my former parish.
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#26 Narraticong

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 10:09 AM

John is spot on. I am aware of the Missouri Synod feeling on Masons. I did not grow up in the Lutheran Church. My father and both brothers are / were Masons. I am the only member of my family who is not a Mason. But that was a choice I made for myself before I was a Lutheran. Just good luck, I suppose! Coming from the outside, I really don't think MS Lutherans are "weird". Conservative, yes, with a strict belief in what Scripture says. I'm OK with that. I don't always like it, and I have to reconcile myself and my beliefs. But that's all part of my spiritual growth. My troop is chartered by my congregation. They are now incorporating Religious Emblem program as part of our Sunday School program.
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#27 SSScout

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:16 PM

So my dad always said he could not join a church that was "too organized", that too many churches had the wrong idea about belief. And he was a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason, Shrine member. Masonic ceremony at his funeral memorial service in a Methodist Church (chartered my Scout Troop). I attended Demolay (Junior Masons, see Knights Templar) at his request, but ultimately saw no real reason behind it. Scouting was all the "brotherhood" and service to others I needed. The secrecy and oaths, even in Demolay, were too weird and ultimately unnecesary to me. Even at that tender age, I realized the futility of swearing something if the underlaying belief was faulty. The "blood oaths" were really not appropriate to my Christian teaching but when I mentioned my doubts, I was told they (the Oaths) were only symbolic anyway and don't worry about them. Then why declare them? Tradition and history, iwas told. Seemed rather hypocritical to me, even back then. When the "Worshipful Master" at my dads funeral asked me if I had ever considered joining the Scottish Rite, I told him of my history in Demolay and my misgivings about the oaths being unBibical, that the secrecy was counter to my newly found Quaker faith. He tried to argue that there were many different religions represented among Freemasonry, that FMs did much good work (burn hospitals, etc.). I said no thank you just the same. Perhaps in the past there was a rational for the Knights Templar and the Masons (even they have internecine conflict about dogma and ritual), but today?
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#28 Gags

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 12:38 PM

SSScout, Sorry for introducing a bit of levity into the conversation, but perhaps you may want to clarify / reword your last statement of: "FMs did much good work (burn hospitals, etc.)". I just can't get the image out of my head of rogue(sp?) mobs of Masons with torches and pitchforks running around town searching for medical buildings to destroy. :-) Gags
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#29 SSScout

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 10:50 AM

mmmmmmmmmm.... Yep, caught on that one... shorthand will trip ya up..."(funding hospitals that treat burn victims, etc.)" English as a language is word order sensitive. Just ask Yoda!
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#30 Packdude

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 04:56 PM

I stumbled across this person yesterday while reading through a forum thread on another Catholic site relating to Catholics and Masons. The link that was in the forum I was reading was a link to the actual rituals with handwritten notes from a 'priest'. As a Master Mason and Brotherhood member, I actually laughed out loud at some of the notations that were made. I don't see how anyone, even someone totally unfamiliar with scouting and the OA, could reach the conclusions that this priest came to. As a non-Catholic, I take issue with Mr. Salza's religious perspective, but that is neither here nor there. I believe that everyone is entitled to believe what they wish. As someone once said, you are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. After watching his interview on youtube, there are many inconsistencies in what he relays as the truth and everything that I know about Masonry. I'm not sure what happened during Mr. Salza's experience with Freemasonry, but whatever it was, it definitely left him with a hatred of anything Masonic. Anything, that is, except his book. It is sad that parents might read his article and forbid their sons from joining the Order of the Arrow, based solely the misinformation he is spreading. FYI, nrp1488, the ritual document that is referred to is indeed still accessible. I downloaded it yesterday and just now clicked on the link in the pdf file and it opened.
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#31 MikeS

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 02:12 PM

WOW!! I'm a little speechless after reading the article by this Salza character! The dude has definately been brainwashed somewhere along the way! While there is no denying some of the OA rituals are borrowings from the Masonic traditions, this guy obviously has absolutely no clue! I guess it just goes to show what people can read into things they do not take the time to try and understand or gain knowledge of. Our rituals had to be taken from somewhere - guess that was the most logical place to look towards. If his srticle wasn't meant to be taken so seriously, it would actually be kind of funny - the notes, suposedly written by a Catholic priest, reference "fire rituals and witchcraft" but yet what's one of the first things that's done in most churches before a mass? Yep, spark up all those candles! I can remember an old priest in my parish growing up during his sermon ane day (I was too young to remember what was going on in the world to provoke him to say this), but I remember him clearly saying that you can not be a Catholic AND a Freemason. I mean this was maybe late 1970's or so. Kind of shocked me because the guy in the pew in front of me was wearing one of those big honkin' masonic rings :) Hey I think I need to sign off now - there's some sketchy looking dudes in long red robes speaking Spanish and carying what look to be like pitchforks coming towards me......hey one of them has a bunch of wood and a torch....but I don't see any marshmallows...what's up with that?!
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#32 sandspur

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 09:16 AM

This thread has been fun to read, but I need to pick up my ELCA son to get to Micosay dance practice tonight.At the Catholic church.
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#33 shortridge

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 10:15 AM

It really does go to show you that anything can be taken out of context. < snark on > Oh, goodness - those people in that imposing edifice over there are pretending to EAT A MAN!!! And DRINK his BLOOD!!! < snark off > See what I mean?
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#34 nolesrule

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 10:23 AM

Pretending? Whatever happened to transubstantiation?
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#35 John-in-KC

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 04:41 PM

It became "In, With, and Under." It's a Lutheran thing ;)
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#36 Jeffrey H

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 12:19 PM

The rituals in the OA are strange and I can see how anyone could guess that Masonic rituals had an influence. Certainly, Native American traditions are a big part of it. There was nothing in the Brotherhood ceremony I experienced that violated my beliefs as a devout Christian. Personally, the biggest takeaway I receive from being an Arrowman is being a part of a "Brotherhood of Cheerful Service." Service is the KEY word for me.
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#37 Jeffrey H

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 03:03 PM

...And another thing. I have no desire to be a part of any secret society. As far as I can see and as Brotherhood member, there is nothing secretive about the Order of the Arrow. Ceremonies can be viewed by the public and parents. I showed my wife the script to my Brotherhood induction ceremony to share with her what I went through. She thought some of it was kinda' funny and laughed. I had to laugh a little myself. :)
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#38 Chug

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 11:06 AM

As an addition to this discussion, the President of the UK Scout Association is the Duke of Kent, who also happens to be the Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of England.
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#39 Frank17

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 08:47 AM

I was just inducted as an ordeal member into the OA, and witnessed my son's ceremony for brotherhood. As a roman catholic, I had no problems with the OA oath(s) and ceremonies; in fact, I was more comfortable with them than I was with the Knights of Columbus secret ceremonies which I was told I could not even tell my wife about (I left K of C over this). Although the OA likes to keep their ceremonies a surprise, they are by no means secret, as parents and others are able to witness them if they desire (as I did for my son's). In fact, one of the OA brotherhood members I met was a catholic priest heavily involved with the order. He is planning a 100th anniversary Scout Sunday service for our council and even offered mass for the catholic scouts and scouters at then end of the OA weekend! My read: for many people, secrecy = conspiracy
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#40 Eagle92

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 09:45 AM

Frank, Welcome to the OA! While I wish you wouldn't have seen the Brotherhood Ceremony until your time, I understand the perogative and don't have a problem with it. In my old council, we had a bunch of members on the CCS in the OA, with several being Vigils.
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