ScoutBox 11 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 WOW.. Loads to read here. I do have a question about IOLS. On this new Tour Form, there is no mention of IOLS needed for at least one adult to bring his troop or patrol out camping. Has this changed from before, when I was told that you needed at least one IOLS Trained leader to go camping? I ask because my troop doesn't know, and we have two older Scouters who are working with our newly formed Venter Patrol and they are planning on a High Adventure outing this summer outside of normal Troop Camp. Link to post Share on other sites
Jay K 15 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 My Doctor is an ASM and a First Aid MB counselor. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle92 110 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 SB, Unless your council mandated, as far as I know IOLS was not mandatory to take Boy Scouts out. Jay, What's his specialty? Again I've had several first responders say they do not want an MD around unless they have an emergency background. They are too set in their ways and cannot adapt. Again this is secondhand. But if he is teaching outdoor oriented first aid skills, don't get me started on ARC and AHA first aid courses, then that's a different story. FORGOT TO ADD FOR ALL, new updates are backtracking from previous update.(This message has been edited by eagle92) Link to post Share on other sites
Jay K 15 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Family Medicine. EMTs are their own ball of wax... Link to post Share on other sites
KC9DDI 11 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Again I've had several first responders say they do not want an MD around unless they have an emergency background. They are too set in their ways and cannot adapt. Well, that's not entirely fair, and also not the whole truth. There's really two concerns when a "bystander physician" tries to aid first responders. The first concern isn't at all specific to the doctor-EMS relationship. For example, a neurologist would likely feel a bit out of place if he were suddenly asked to perform cosmetic surgery. Likewise when many doctors suddenly find themselves needing to provide emergency care, they're often just outside their comfort zone. And, worse case scenario, the stress and adrenaline of some emergency scenes, combined with a real or perceived duty to act, can cause some friction between professional emergency responders and physicians. The second big concern legal related. EMTs and Paramedics operate under the direction of a specific physician. EMS actually operates under an extension of that physician's medical license, which means that the physician is legally responsible for the care rendered by the EMTs and Paramedics under his or her medical control. Thus, the physician develops an extensive set of written protocols that EMS operates under. When EMS treats a patient, they open themselves up to legal liability if they exceed, or fall short of, those written protocols. So, in the event that a "bystander physician" is on an emergency scene, and attempts to give orders or direction to the EMS crew, there is a possibility that the orders given by the bystander physician will be inconsistent with the written protocols that EMS is legally bound to follow. The problem is that many physicians may not be aware of this procedure, which understandably can cause conflict. This isn't some kind of irrational fear of imaginary litigation, it's a very real concern that literally all EMS agencies have formal plans and procedures for, and is covered in all EMS education programs. Every agency I've ever worked for actually has printed documents that we are to present to any bystander physician who wishes to direct or participate in patient care, so as to limit the legal liability to the EMS crew, the medical director, and the bystander physician. So it's not really a matter of "not wanting MDs around." Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle92 110 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 KC, Thanks for the clarification. I should have known that there would also be some legal ramifications involved. Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 ahhh Eagle here is the twist...... A SM or ASM are required to draw a tour plan in our neck of the woods. To be considered fully trained and on the Charter for that position you are required to have IOLS. So in my neck of the woods, yes IOLS is indirectly required. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle92 110 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Gotcha. To a degree I like that policy b/c it would insure that folks leading troops have some outdoors background (sorry IOLS does NOT make you an outdoors expert, heck I am still learning new things and I've been around a while), and we hopefully would not have repeats of NH. Plus I would have more attendance at my IOLS training this weekend But I know folks who have strong outdoor backgrounds who have not taken IOLS yet b/c of time constraints. Luckily national does allow a test out, but some council do not allow it. Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Test out makes me giggle We had 15 18 year old aged out boy scouts sign up to take the test out for IOLS last fall....Lets just say many did not pass and needed to take the course. I figured these guys would be easy.....I was at the knot station and ugly was an understatement. Link to post Share on other sites
ScoutBox 11 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm still waiting a response from my DE about if IOLS is required in my Council.. Last year before the change on the Tour Plan, I was told it is required. Now no one knows.. Link to post Share on other sites
BDPT00 41 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Basementdweller!! We're in agreement ... what's with that?! I think that far too often, most people in the Scouting family assume that because a young man wears an Eagle on his shirt that he knows everything, and is ready to just step in as an adult. They need to be trained. I would submit that they are more often big kids, rather than young adults. Either way, they need to be trained as an adult. Their role has changed dramatically, and they need to know that. So do we. Just because an eleven year old got his book signed off for compass and knots doesn't mean that he can perform those skills when he crosses into the magic world of the eighteen year old. He needs outdoor leadership skills as well as some classroom stuff relating to Aims and Methods, and let's not forget youth protection. It's simple for some, but for others ... they have no clue. BDPT00 Link to post Share on other sites
ScoutBox 11 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Agreed... I've meet several Eagle Scouts that have either forgotten, or were Helo'd and don't know. In fact some of the worst Scouters I have see are young Eagles just crossing over to Adult Positions. Although these are very few. But they have made an impact onto my memory. My IOLS Course we had a young man who had scouted his whole life, was AOL, and Eagle, and he was the one doing the most stupid things. Another Eagle (Helo'd) I know him, went to WB, and didn't finish but one goal on his Ticket. I think that waiting a few years in life would be best for many. Then getting back into Scouting, and learning again. Took me 22 years after moving out of the house with my parents before I got back involved. Due to my son. I needed that time to learn, and grow. But this is my perspective. Link to post Share on other sites
FScouter 24 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 "I was told it is required..." Just ask the person that "told" where you can read all about it... meanwhile have a fun campout. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle92 110 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Don't remind me of the Eagles who can't perform. I admit I'm rusty in some skills, and I may inadvertantly do things "old school" and not the current BSA way. And I may get my lashings' names confused, heck I admit I forgot how to tie a regular square lashing 'cause my troop always used the Japanese Square (JS Mk2 I found out is the technical name) But by jingo I can go out in the outdoors and survive, and I expect that of an Eagle. But I am also old school. Mastery of basic scout skills was experessly written in the BSHB of my time, and expected from us by the Jr. leaders. who were in charge. Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I never said they were eagles...... I am willing to bet some of them were. But still half of did not have simple knot tying skills. Several required a brief refresher and picked them back up and three were a total loss, probably never knew them to start with. were they eagles, don't know because it was cold we all had our jackets on and I did not see their shirts, nor did I ask. Session periods were very short. I will say that it took me some time to relearn the knots as an adult leader.....but I had them down before the end of my iols course. Link to post Share on other sites
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