Putting Patrol method in IOLS Test-out..

[acco40 95]

Also, a properly run IOLS follows the The Boy Scout Handbook very closely. As far as I know, there is no mention of electric heaters or Wood Badge critters in the The Boy Scout Handbook.

 

Kudu and others - courses like these usually struggle for volunteers to run them. I suggest you volunteer and help run these courses the way they should be run. Push your councils and districts to get as a minimum 20 to 30% new staff for every course. This will prevent folks from just going through the motions or from creating an "old boys network" of sorts.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Old_OX_Eagle83 212]

I'm not sure where I weigh in on a test out, but I like acco40's thought s on how to make IOLS a quality program. I've been told be a few ASM's that they didn't get much out of the program, and it was poorly ran. I've just gotten used to re-training my ASM's, maybe I should use that same time to help fix our local ILST program and more peeps could benefit. Our program has been put on who those who will, not those who know the skills. Food for thought.

 

 

[qwazse 4342]

There have to bee some cookies. When I took SM advanced, the orienteering guy introduced us to geocaching, the knots guy introduced us to the "taught line controversey" (there are two ways to finish it), the hiking guy introduced us to back country backpacking, the swimming guy was the aquatics director at summer camp.

 

Sure, you can walk an adult through T2FC, but what he/she needs to really feel like a new scout is the sense that there is always something "just around the corner."

 

Instructors who can give "peeks" at the next big thing once T2FC is accomplished are essential to this process.

[bnelon44 17]

For good or ill, if you read the IOLS syllabus you don't really see much mentioning of the Patrol Method. Also it specifically states that anyone showing proficiency in a skill taught in the course can skip that part of the course. So a test out is simply showing that you know the skills taught in the course. The Patrol Method is not one of them.

[Eagle92 110]

Acco,

 

Challenge is there are some adult leaders who HAVE experienced scouting as a youth, have the outdoor skills, and do not want to waste their weekend doing training they already have.

 

Give you an example. I went through the whole scouting program way back in the day: 3 years of Cubs (no Tigers and Cubs was 3-5 grades unlike today) and 7 years of Boy Scouts. Did the old BROWNSEA 22 program, had 2 50 milers under my belt, Eagle, etc. etc. I went through the old SM Fundamentals course where you had to complete all three sections to be trained, and no test out option.

 

With the exception of the session on paperwork, i.e. all the forms needed to run s troop, it was a total and complete waste of my time. I knew how meetings are suppose to be run because I ran them as a youth. I knew how to camp and backpack because I did it already. And I knew most of the leadership skills as BROWNSEA 22, like NYLT today is "Woodbadge Lite." And to be honest the paperwork session could have been a self study.

 

I'll give another example. I knew a guy who worked camp staff, is an Eagle, and went to Philmont 3 times as a youth and adult, among other adventures. but b/c he never did IOLS, he was untrained. Luckily we got him on staff for my IOLS course to do orienteering ( and he added geocaching too,) and got him "trained."

 

 

But my all time favorite is the following. Know a 3 beader who was "untrained" b/c he never did IOLS. At the time, it did not matter that he was a camping, backpacking, cooking, etc etc MBC, b/c he didn't take the course, he was "untrained." Funny thing is he finally got "Trained" when he taught the course at summer camp one summer.

 

Also got to remember this; national can change how often training is valid for. Anyone remember how in late 2011, national tried to make everyone go through training again by saying that the older courses would no longer count towards training and JTE? Only when those of us in the field started complaining did the compromise by saying that the decision to accept older training lies with the local training chairs.

 

 

 

 

[acco40 95]

I guess I have issues with someone serving as a SM or SA who thinks spending a weekend with fellow scouters camping, learning or teaching scout skills "a complete waste of time" serving as a leader to the youth.

 

I've taken, taught and served as SM (i.e. ran) IOLS. Many times there were participants in the course that had mastered a particular skill better than the instructor. Those folks either became a very valuable addition to the staff and helped to train those who were not proficient or acted as petulant "this course is wasting my valuable time" folks who made the course unpleasant for both the staff and participants.

 

Scouting should be fun for the adults and the youth. If one really feels that spending a weekend camping, cooking and practicing or teaching basic scout skills is a waste of their time - maybe they really shouldn't be an SM or SA.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Eagle92 110]

Acco,

 

Life is funny at times. When I did SMF, I thought of it as a hoop to jump through. Again i didn't learn anything new except the paperwork. I did enjoy the camaraderie, and luckily I had time on my hands as I was single, in college, and no kids. If I had to do it today being married with kids, highly active in scouting, and dealing with normal life stuff, I may be a little ticked. Ok a lot ticked b/c I had one of the biggest mouths complaining to national when they were trying to make folks redo training last year

 

But some folks have very challenging lives. My Philmont friend who did the orienteering work is one. He was the staffer who showed up to training carrying a firearm with the police CSI van as he was on call that weekend. Because they are short staffed in his department, he's been pulling 20+ hours of overtime a week, wiht one week doing 42 hours of overtime! He's already had to back out of stuff b/c of his job. Why take time away from his family?

 

My three bead friend is a character. He did WB as a CM, and got his 3rd bead as an untrained ASM. Between the troop, crew, OA and district work he was doing,to say he was on the go would be an understatement. He had a choice: do training for skills he already has and not allow Scouts, Venturers, or Arrowman do an activiy, or skip training and provide program.

[JoeBob 606]

acco40:

"I guess I have issues with someone serving as a SM or SA who thinks spending a weekend with fellow scouters camping, learning or teaching scout skills "a complete waste of time" serving as a leader to the youth."

 

"If one really feels that spending a weekend camping, cooking and practicing or teaching basic scout skills is a waste of their time - maybe they really shouldn't be an SM or SA."

 

But what if it IS a waste of their time? If a scouter knows most of what is taught at IOLS, would not that time be better spent with his own troop teaching boys, or home with family mending fences?

 

Half of what was taught when I attended IOLS I will not use with my boys! (Not gonna get specific. Don't want to rile up any trainers...) There were either more entertaining ways to teach the topics, or they were nonsense. Read the recent posts about training quality. IOLS is close to being a negative for the scouting program.

***

 

I guess I have issues with someone serving as a SM IOLS trainer who thinks that experienced woodsmen and scouters should be pushed aside in favor of pencil-pushers.

 

[Eagle92 110]

Joe,

 

As an IOLS trainer, I WANT the best outdoorsman I know teaching the classes, even if they are youth . I had a 16yo Star Scout teaching with his dad, and a 15yo Life Scout working on another section.

 

[acco40 95]

Good God, who do you think run IOLS? They are volunteers like everyone else. If your training staff is subpar, why not volunteer to fix it? Yes, I've taken some training that was really lacking. JOeBob, instead of being fearful of riling up trainers, why not think of future Scouters that may take the course and administer constructive criticism (every IOLS course should solicit feedback) and even go further and volunteer to help out the next IOLS training opportunity.

 

 

[JoeBob 606]

acco,

 

I merely took your statement:

"I guess I have issues with someone serving as a SM or SA who thinks spending a weekend with fellow scouters camping, learning or teaching scout skills "a complete waste of time" serving as a leader to the youth."

 

and turned it on you:

"I guess I have issues with someone serving as a SM IOLS trainer who thinks that experienced woodsmen and scouters should be pushed aside in favor of pencil-pushers."

 

You negative reaction to Eagle92's opinion of BSA training made me question the efficacy of BSA requiring training.

 

Before you tear off down the wrong trail, I am a strong supporter of having knowledgeable skilled leaders for our Scouts. But I am not sure that the 'Trained' strip signifies anything more than 4 weeknights in a classroom and a weekend of car-camping. Required training may very well have kept more knowledge and experience out of Scouting than required training has taught skills to new leaders.

 

I like training, if it's GOOD training. Even if I'm expert in the topic, I still enjoy seeing a good presentation.

 

Constant required re-training is just plain stupid. Specifically, CS shooting sports.

I taught Archery for a few years, after taking the initial training required. The first training had important information about range set-up and handling masses of boys that would have not occurred to me beforehand.

I had the same partner working with me every year; we had a steady stream of Boy Scout helpers forming an experienced cadre. We were complimented from multiple quarters about the quality instruction, safety, and efficiency of our archery range. Many older Cubs said they only came back to Daycamp to shoot.

 

But then the two year re-training requirement came to light. (Seems I hadn't been 'legal' for a bit there...) My boy had crossed over, so I was no longer vested in the CS Daycamp program. District was scrambling for shooting instructors. It takes two full days and four .75 days standing in a sunny open field. I was already taking time off for BS Summer Camp, but I could wrangle the time for CS Daycamp archery. It was fun. I wanted to do it.

But I had to be re-trained? Schedule a whole Saturday to be wasted holding my tongue? I had a work commitment on the Saturday that training was available, but I could hire a replacement for that.

But then it occurred to me that in another two years I'd have to do the whole dog-and-pony-show again.

 

I declined, and haven't regretted it.

 

***

acco, your disdain for someone who criticized BSA training riled me. Sorry I made it personal.

 

In her OP, moosetracker was fine tuning a test out for IOLS in order to retain experienced Scouters. That's a direction I strongly support. I fear that if if BSA continues to weed out woodsmen in favor of bureaucrats, we soon will lack the skills to go outside.

 

 

[desertrat77 1144]

Acco, valiant thoughts about volunteering to be on the training cadre, but here's what I've seen (four councils in five years due to military moves): volunteer all you want, but you won't be selected unless you are a Good Olde Boy, A Member in Good Standing (not with the troop, but with the other District Good Olde Boys) and you darn better have at least two beads dangling from your neck on a leather thong before you even say "hello"....

 

Bottom line: they ain't looking for an experienced, savvy volunteer to be on the training cadre! They are looking for Good Olde Boys, or Aspiring Good Olde Boys, to join them and preserve the status quo. So outdoorsmen/women with previous scouting experience are generally less welcome because they'll upset the little sand castle that's been built. (Eagle92, you and others like yourself are the expection, in that you welcome experienced folks...but you are that, the exception.)

 

Who decides if training is a waste of time? The trainee. But in the BSA, it's the opposite. The cadre decides "this is what is best for you, non-Good Olde Boys." The missing element? Respect. Respect for the trainees' time and life experience.

 

And so it goes. The mandatory training is a waste of time in many locations. And the cadre isn't the least bit interested in hearing feedback, or changing things up. They've got all the answers, they've got the "credentials", and they have all the time in the world.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)