What does Wood badge curtail?

[Kudu 186]

Taking the course with a closed mind or a desire to debate the fine points of the EDGE method

 

Leadership theory (AKA Wood Badge) removed any mention of a Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol from the PATROL METHOD presentation of Scoutmaster-Specific Training.

 

The Patrol Method presentation, mind you.

 

That is not a "fine point."

 

Given our differences, it is ironic that John-in-KC and I are the only two people in the United States to publicly declare that EDGE should not have displaced the Patrol Method in program training for Scouters.

 

Thank you John.

 

Where we differ is in our observation of what Wood Badge has done to the Patrol Method.

 

The comparison of Wood Badge to military or corporate leadership courses is not valid because neither the military nor any corporation holds six month elections to give everyone in the mail room the opportunity to vote for the general or the CEO to learn about "leadership."

 

The purpose of the military is to defend our country.

 

The purpose of a corporation is to make a profit.

 

The purpose of the Patrol Method before 1972 was competency-based Adventure.

 

Not "leadership."

 

Patrol Leader Training (PLT) taught a Patrol Leader how to take his Patrol into the woods without adult supervision (Adventure).

 

Wood Badge eliminated PLT and replaced it with Positions of Responsibility (POR). Six month PORs favor a rapid turn-over of fake leadership so that everyone will learn abstract formulas like EDGE (school) and then pretend to use them.

 

It is easy enough to objectively measure the effectiveness of Wood Badge.

 

In the Patrols of Troops that support Wood Badge and NYLT, does even one single Patrol Leader get his Patrol out on regular unsupervised Patrol Hikes? Is his Patrol ready to extend these regular hikes to overnight journeys?

 

Those are the real-world "leadership skills" to which Baden-Powell refers when he writes of "real responsibility."

 

In this country those were also the objectives of Patrol Leader Training (PLT) before Wood Badge destroyed the Patrol Method by removing the position-specific PLT:

 

Patrols are ready to go hiking and camping on their own just as soon as the Patrol Leader has been trained, and the Scouts have learned to take care of themselves (Handbook for Scoutmasters [fourth edition], page 118).

 

Even if we dumb Scouting down to the Troop Method, real leadership can still be assessed by physical distance.

 

Many Wood Badge courses still separate the Patrols by approximately Baden-Powell's minimum 300 feet apart. How many adult leadership experts take that practice home with them from Wood Badge?

 

If we accept Barry's report that 5% of the population are natural leaders, then every Troop of 20 Scouts already has at least one Patrol Leader capable of camping his Patrol a football field away from the others.

 

Does any Wood Badge graduate here allow him to do so?

 

If not, then it is reasonable to assert that Wood Badge is not even a neutral influence on leadership.

 

It destroys leadership.

 

That, Scoutfish, is what Wood Badge "curtails"!

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[Eagle92 110]

Kudu,

What about me, I think replacing the patrol method with EDGE is stupid too.

 

Seriously though EDGE is not a leadership method, it's a teaching method that has been around a very long time, ie the old Tell, Show, Do of old. It is a method to be used by the PL and other leaders to TEACH their patrol and troop mates. All it is is JARGON, and I wish that the term "EDGE" was not in the requirements, but rather teach skills to other scouts.

 

 

[JFL49 10]

An important part of the Wood Badge course is the Patrol Method. Patrols are the primary organizational structure of the course. Patrol leaders are responsible to leading their Wood Badge patrols. The Wood Badge Senior Patrol Leader runs the program. The Scoutmaster stands in the background.

 

Some elements of BSA may have pushed aside the Patrol Method, but that is not true for Wood Badge.

[GKlose 24]

But don't you think it ironic that a Woodbadge SPL is appointed by a course director, and that the PL duty is rotated among patrol members so that everyone gets a turn? :-)

 

Guy

[Kudu 186]

The Wood Badge Senior Patrol Leader runs the program.

 

That is the Troop Method.

 

The Patrol Method is measured by independent Patrol Adventures.

 

In the Troop Method, the SPL appoints voting members of the PLC: The "Troop" Guides and the Troop ASPLs. "Troop" Guides and Troop ASPLs are by definition the "Troop" Method.

 

In the Patrol Method, the Patrol Leaders hire and fire the SPL.

 

If Wood Badge used the Patrol Method, every Wood Badge graduate would be able to boast of at least one Patrol that practices the Patrol Method as it was defined before Wood Badge destroyed Patrol Leader Training.

 

A "Real Patrol" is measured by the distance that it covers.

 

A leadership-based Patrol is measured by adult-supervised "Controlled Failure": Using EDGE to wash the dishes in a Webelos III "Troop" campsite.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

 

[Lisabob 13]

I agree with a lot of the points Kudu makes about patrols and about the role of adults.

 

On the other hand, considering that a relatively small percent of scouters take WB and yet also considering that a relatively high percent of troops seem to downplay the traditional patrol method, I have to conclude that an awful lot of adults involved in scouting have done a fine job, thank you, of weakening (or ignoring) the patrol method ALL ON THEIR OWN, without WB training to blame. WB may be an easy target but I think it is just a bit too convenient in this case.

 

 

 

[Eagle92 110]

Lisa,

 

Kudu can correct me if I'm wrong, but under the old GBB WB program the PM was stressed a lot more AND implemented. At least that is what I'm told and read. And if it's anything like the BA 22 that I went through, lots of emphasis on scout craft, lots of activities with the patrols on their own, and leadership classes mixed in for good measure.

 

The JLT course I staffed, while good on leadership classes, didn't have as much emphasis on scoutcraft and PM as BA 22.

 

I'll give you an example, with BA22 we went backpacking as part of the program to one of the areas. Wen tot a second area and dropped off our packs, carrying the bare minimum (water, food, and survival kits were were told to prep in advance) and off we went. During the entire wilderness survival portion, we saw the PGs 1 time, and that was to warn us that sever rain was headed our way so make sure we really waterproof shelters ( " Guys we got good news and we got bad news....").

 

While the Cocky Curlews were not the best patrol in the troop, we were a patrol, we dealt with patrol problems, had very limited contact with adults, and did a lot on our own.

[Kudu 186]

I have to conclude that an awful lot of adults involved in scouting have done a fine job, thank you, of weakening (or ignoring) the patrol method ALL ON THEIR OWN, without WB training to blame. WB may be an easy target but I think it is just a bit too convenient in this case.

 

Lisa, let us review: The Patrol Method Session of Scoutmaster-Specific Training does not include a single mention of a Patrol Leader or a working Patrol. The Patrol Method Session is mostly about EDGE.

 

Leadership Development (AKA Wood Badge) also replaced the Scout's Patrol Leader Training (PLT) with TLT (mostly EDGE).

 

See Patrol Leader Training:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

Occam's Razor: The problem is training.

 

Where do the Obedient and Loyal trainers come from?

 

Wood Badge.

 

Yours at 300 Feet,

 

Kudu

[BadenP 93]

Look I have taken both the former WB and the current WB courses and I have to agree the former one was much better designed and helpful for a myriad of reasons. However that old course is gone forever, unfortunately, and if it is a choice between taking the current course or not I would tell a scouter to take it. The reasons are these, boy scout numbers and troops are dropping at an alarming rate, National hasn't got a clue how to change this situation, and SM's and ASM's need all the training they can get to stop this decline and deliver a dynamic program to their boys. You need the basic building blocks of knowledge to be competent in your position, WB is one of those blocks. The saying a cup half full is better than no cup at all may be applicable here. WB may not be the same as it once was or as well designed but it is still a vital piece of training, especially for those involved with the boy scout program.

[Kudu 186]

BadenP writes:

 

The reasons are these, boy scout numbers and troops are dropping at an alarming rate, National hasn't got a clue how to change this situation, and SM's and ASM's need all the training they can get to stop this decline and deliver a dynamic program to their boys.

 

Wood Badge is the reason for our decline.

 

Membership numbers went a sharp tailspin the year that Wood Badge switched the BSA from Scoutcraft (Outdoor Adventure) to indoor leadership theory.

 

The destruction of William Hillcourt's life work was nasty and brutal:

 

In December 1965, Chief Scout Executive Joseph Brunton Jr. received a "blueprint for action", the White Stag Report, from John Larson. It stated that offering leadership development to youth was a unique opportunity for Scouting to provide a practical benefit to youth and would add substantial support to Scouting's character development goals. It recommended that Wood Badge should be used to experiment with the leadership development principles of White Stag.

 

The National Council leadership approved adapting the White Stag leadership competencies for nationwide use. Dr. John W. Larson, by now Director of Boy Scout Leader Training for the National Council, adapted the White Stag leadership development competencies and wrote the first syllabus for the adult Wood Badge program. Shifting from teaching primarily Scoutcraft skills to leadership competencies was a paradigm shift, changing the assumptions, concepts, practices, and values underlying how adults were trained in the skills of Scouting.

 

Some members were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scout craft to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected.

 

Larson later reported, "He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right." Hillcourt presented an alternative to Larson's plan to incorporate leadership into Wood Badge. Chief Scout Brunton asked Larson to look at Hillcourt's plan, and Larson reported back that it was the same stuff, just reordered and rewritten.

 

http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

 

[BadenP 93]

I don't disagree with you Kudu but the reality is the old WB is never coming back and I for one would like to see boy scouts grow in numbers instead of lamenting the past and putting ALL the blame on just one aspect of scouting. Boy Scouts are on the decline for more than the patrol method, which my old troop and many today still use Hilcourts model, the program has drifted further and further away from its central core of outdoor skills and leadership development to name just two. You may have given up on scouting but I have not.

[Kudu 186]

the program has drifted further and further away from its central core of outdoor skills and leadership development to name just two.

 

"Leadership Development" is the cancer that killed Wood Badge. It replaced Scoutcraft. It was never a "central core" of Scouting when Scouting was popular.

 

Wood Badgers would say exactly the same thing if Wood Badge took over Little League:

 

"Yes, Little League went into a steep membership decline the year that we replaced baseball with EDGE theory and office team-building exercises. So we need all the EDGE theory and office team-building exercises we can get to stop this decline and deliver a dynamic program to our boys. If that does not work, Little League can always do what the BSA did and switch to soccer. You know, broaden the appeal of baseball by attracting boys who hate baseball. We can always replace the old-fashioned kicking and running of soccer with EDGE theory and team-building exercises!"

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[BadenP 93]

Kudu,

 

I think you really are putting all your eggs in one basket, leadership skills have always been part of scouting, all the way back to BP's time. The methodology may have been different but the goal was the same. I agree that the current WB training has had more of a negative than positive influence on the scouting program, however SM's can still introduce into their troop program the woodcraft skills of the past along with GPS and geotracking skills of today.

[Kudu 186]

leadership skills have always been part of scouting, all the way back to BP's time. The methodology may have been different but the goal was the same.

 

That is simply not true, Baden

 

If you want to quote specific passages then I think it would be fun to discuss their context, but back when Scouting was popular, the "goal" of the Patrol Method was small-group Adventure, not "leadership skills."

 

As soon as "Leadership Development" was introduced in 1972 our membership went into a sharp decline.

 

Why?

 

Because we replaced Scoutcraft Adventure with teaching everybody a stupid leadership formula.

 

As soon as you declare that leadership is a "Method of Scouting" (rather than something that the most competent outdoor leader exhibits when he hikes and camps his Patrol without adult supervision) then by definition you must dumb the adventure down to the level of the Troop's most incompetent Scout so that he can get "his turn to be the leader."

 

It is magical thinking to believe that everybody can be a leader without dumbing down the level of managed risk.

 

Likewise, to be fair to the Troop Librarian, his magic formula must be the same as the Patrol Leader's magic formula, so goodbye position-specific Patrol Leader Training.

 

Now that most boys hate Scouting, "leadership" has been kicked up another notch to informal "aim of Scouting" status (as in "Character and Leadership") to justify using soccer to recruit 100,000 boys a year who hate camping.

 

You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character.

 

We run the risk of becoming irrelevant if we don't adapt to things that attract kids today... We recognize the evolving science of leadership. We've had CEOs on our board say they want to send their people to Wood Badge, our adult leader training program, because we use state-of-the-art techniques (Chief Scout Executive Mazzuca)

 

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2008-07-20-boy-scouts-advice_N.htm

 

 

 

Camping is not necessarily a big thing with them, as a matter of fact in some cases it is not big at all. So we need to kind of think about, is it more important that we reach that child with the kind of things we have for children and we have for families in character development and leadership skill growth and all of those things? Or is it more important that we get them in a tent next week? And so I think the answer to that is fairly obvious to us.

 

...when we say 'we want to take your twelve-year-old son but you can't come' we're making a mistake there. We have to engage an entire family... For example one of our pilot programs over the last recent years has been Scouting and soccer...

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/#29491940

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

[BadenP 93]

Kudu

 

From Scouting for Boys by BP -

"Those who are scouts now should determine to be better scouts, not only in backwoodsmanship and camping but in sticking to the Law and carrying it out."

 

"Our Scout Law and Promise, when we really put them into practice, take away all occasion for war and strife between nations."

 

Clearly BP realized that there was more to scouting than just camping and adventure but a responsibility and obligation for all scouts to be leaders, setting the example for others to follow and realized the power those scouting principles had in shaping lives and ending conflict between people. If those are not the true marks of leadership I don't know what is. Just some food for thought.